Jesus For The Non-religious

[_Runtu]

It goes beyond that. As someone who thinks that words have meaning, Spong is an offense to me. The deconstructionists were an offense to me. It’s similar to Marx discussing how arguments are bound by class consciousness but exempting himself.

I hope I'm not an offense to you, but I would argue that words always have meaning in context, which is necessarily bound up in time and place. I always liked Paul De Man's idea that a word's "meaning" depends on metonymy (its location in a text) and metaphor (the choice of words to the exclusion of all other possible words). Thus, words have meaning, but it's not a one-to-one correspondence between signifier and signified but rather meaning resides in filling in the gaps through reading and interpreting. And what fills in the gaps are our experiences and cultural expectations.

I am not familiar with Spong (admittedly I've never been all that interested in mainstream Christian theology, probably because of latent Mormon disdain for it), but the idea that the Word is a hardfastened repository of meaning strikes me as untenable.

[_richardMdBorn]

Richard, I think that's what Spong tries to address. Most people nowadays are far too savvy to buy into a global flood, or Adam and Eve, or why we have a rainbow! and all he is trying to do, is to say, (in my opinion) let's not take these things too literally.

Let's temper what we have in the blble, much of it culture( and some not very nice culture) from the standpoint of a particular set of writers, redactors and translators, all with their own belief systems,....with a bit of common sense in the light of what we know now about various belief systems in the ancient world, and in the light of what we know now (which okay isn't that much) about how the world works!!

Mary

Hi Mary,

I think that Spong goes far beyond that. He's marrying the church to the spirit of the age. Unfortunately for his task, the spirit of the age changes and a new post Spongian revolution will soon be necessary.

Richard

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi Richard, you say:

I think that Spong goes far beyond that. He's marrying the church to the spirit of the age. Unfortunately for his task, the spirit of the age changes and a new post Spongian revolution will soon be necessary.

[quote]...the spirit of the age changes... [quote] Exactly!! And births new insight, new questions, new conclusions, new attitudes... Has moved us from Popedom to Evangelism et al... through Luther. Wesleys, Calvin, Raikes, Booth........

Spong is but one in a chain who, as Mary suggests--and i agree--is bridging the gap between religious superstitions of the past--that today cannot find reasonable substantiation--and knowledge/information/reason beyond the imaginations of our ancient kin.

Spong, You nor me are in a "revolution". We are ALL party to the Relgious/Spiritual "Evolution"--as participants, spectators, for or against the "Two New Commandments" Jesus introduced.

IMSCO, Spong, and folks such as Mary, are champianing those "love and justice" principles to practical applications that seem beyond the ken of Religious Fundamentalism that fuels a large segment of Evangelism, that tends more to "the next life", than this one. As i see it... Warm regards, Roger

[_richardMdBorn]

Hi Roger,

I suspect that a discussion likes ours has occurred thousands of times over the past few decades. Thus, I would have been surprised if you had not reacted to my friend’s articles by stating,

Roger I think them alarmist and fear mongering.

And to my question about the spirit of the age

Roger Exactly!! And births new insight, new questions, new conclusions, new attitudes... Has moved us from Popedom to Evangelism et al... through Luther. Wesleys, Calvin, Raikes, Booth........

Richard And what if the spirit of the age is totalitarian, Islamic, etc. How do you differentiate between the positive and negative movements. One must often stand against the spirit of the age.

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi Richard, from your post:

Roger: Exactly!! And births new insight, new questions, new conclusions, new attitudes... Has moved us from Popedom to Evangelism et al... through Luther. Wesleys, Calvin, Raikes, Booth........

Richard: And what if the spirit of the age is totalitarian, Islamic, etc. How do you differentiate between the positive and negative movements. One must often stand against the spirit of the age.

"And what "IF" it isn't? And, advancement has been resisted by those who resist any "spirit" of change? Copernicus, Galileo, Newton come to mind. What 'might' your reaction have been in 1541 and over the next centuries???

The 'world' has lived through totalitarianisms for centuries, and continued to grow intellectually and spiritually. Had it not, "Satan" would be winning, and "God" would be a loser! I don't happen to think of "God" or humanity, in those "negative" terms.

It must be clear to you that i tend to be formed in the positive 'school'... I don't understand how one can look back over the millenniums and not be grateful to be living in 2007... Will you please present some reasons that you fear the future, and want to play, "What if 'bad' stuff?"

Please don't think i'm blind to the 'evils' man imposes upon man. I am most aware of community and world injustice. They challenge all good folks to remedy the sufferings they cause.

I think one "differentiates" because humanity was/is not born depraved. Humankind is evolving slowly to more empathetic, thinking feeling compassionate beings than here-to-fore. If not so, then Jesus was an utter failure! OR, his message has been misconstrued over the last 2,000 years by misguided Evangelism selling sites in Heaven to those avoiding their "Stewardship" here...

Enter John Selby Spong, as, not the first, nor will he be the last, but simply a 'current' Reformer to stir the putrid, stagnant waters of Establishment Christianism to aeration and life... As i see our vibrant advancing humanity... Warm regards, Roger

Edited to add the following excerpt from an interview of Rick Warren, "The Purpose Driven Life", author:

God wants us to practice on earth what we will do
forever in eternity. We were made by God and for God, and until you
figure that out, life isn't going to make sense.

Life is a series of problems: Either you are in one
now, you're just coming out of one, or you're getting ready to go into
another one.

The reason for this is that God is more interested in
your character than your comfort.
God is more interested in making your life holy than He
is in making your life happy.

We can be reasonably happy here on earth, but that's
not the goal of life. The goal is to grow in character, in
Christ likeness

I'm not sure how you--Richard or anyone--will 'see' this? My friend, who forwarded it to me, thought it inspirational, and i suppose reassuring... That i can appreciate from their perspective...

However, to me it bodes saddness and a greater degree of dispair than joy or hope. These are suggested to be more a part of some distant far-off place than with family, loved ones and "neighbors" (remember, all are neighbors) here on earth day-by-day in mortality.

It seems to me "grow(th) in character, in Christ likeness" would bring happiness and freedom? A lighter "yoke"?

I see life as a series of closely linked happiness, joyful experiences, fulfilling relationships, opportunities of growth, stretching capacity, learning, achieving, sharing, trading, dealing with reality, compromises, over-coming challenges...

To see life, as Rick Warren states,

Life is a series of problems: Either you are in one
now, you're just coming out of one, or you're getting ready to go into
another one.

I think is to be off the track. Possibly, this does appeal to some. If it fills their 'need'...

But, i think this escapist attitude is what has hindered the real liberating message of Jesusism: (The Good-news!) "Divinity links Humanity to Creativity that when exercised with "Charitable Intent" heals, clothes, feeds, attends others and establishes communities of goodwill, peace and co-operation...

Traditional Christianism has failed misserably to abide "The Two New Commandments"--to this point in time. Might folks like Spong nudge it along? We can hope, eh? Roger

[_richardMdBorn]

Hi Roger

Roger "And what "IF" it isn't? And, advancement has been resisted by those who resist any "spirit" of change? Copernicus, Galileo, Newton come to mind. What 'might' your reaction have been in 1541 and over the next centuries???

Richard Where did I say that we should resist any change.

Roger The 'world' has lived through totalitarianisms for centuries, and continued to grow intellectually and spiritually. Had it not, "Satan" would be winning, and "God" would be a loser! I don't happen to think of "God" or humanity, in those "negative" terms.

Richard Don’t you agree that totalitarianism in the 20th century could murder people in the tens of millions. That was not possible previously.

Roger It must be clear to you that i tend to be formed in the positive 'school'... I don't understand how one can look back over the millenniums and not be grateful to be living in 2007...

Richard Where did I assert otherwise.

Roger Will you please present some reasons that you fear the future, and want to play, "What if 'bad' stuff?"

Richard I fear some aspects of society today. You don’t fear this?

Roger Please don't think i'm blind to the 'evils' man imposes upon man. I am most aware of community and world injustice. They challenge all good folks to remedy the sufferings they cause.

I think one "differentiates" because humanity was/is not born depraved.

Richard I believe that humanity is born depraved.

Roger Humankind is evolving slowly to more empathetic, thinking feeling compassionate beings than here-to-fore. If not so, then Jesus was an utter failure!

Richard Why is this the case. “This is the work of God, to believe in the one he has sent.” Jn 6:29. You appear to be confusing Jesus with Teilhard de Chardin

Roger OR, his message has been misconstrued over the last 2,000 years by misguided Evangelism selling sites in Heaven to those avoiding their "Stewardship" here...

Richard The last time I checked, the man who led the abolitionist movement in the UK, William Wilberforce, was an evangelical. As was Booth, Wesley, Whitfield, etc,. They all were committed to getting ready for the afterlife and improving this life.

Roger Enter John Selby Spong, as, not the first, nor will he be the last, but simply a 'current' Reformer to stir the putrid, stagnant waters of Establishment Christianism to aeration and life... As i see our vibrant advancing humanity...

Richard Spong represents a section of the old mainline churches which is rapidly dying out.

[_Roger Morrison]

Good AM, Richard, thanks for our on-going :-) I'll respond in UL:

Hi Roger

Roger "And what "IF" it isn't? And, advancement has been resisted by those who resist any "spirit" of change? Copernicus, Galileo, Newton come to mind. What 'might' your reaction have been in 1541 and over the next centuries???

Richard Where did I say that we should resist any change.

RM: Maybe i mistakenly picked that up by your criticism of Spong & THE changes he has implemented & advocates to move Christianism from mysticism and superstition--as he and others see it--to rational, pragmatic application of humanitarian principles...

Roger The 'world' has lived through totalitarianisms for centuries, and continued to grow intellectually and spiritually. Had it not, "Satan" would be winning, and "God" would be a loser! I don't happen to think of "God" or humanity, in those "negative" terms.

Richard Don’t you agree that totalitarianism in the 20th century could murder people in the tens of millions. That was not possible previously.

RM: I "...agree 'ANYTHING' can happen in the 20th century..." WWII brought 10's millions to their death...50M Russians alone. (if memory serves?) BUT i believe there is more resistance to that happening than ever before. Weeping Mothers and wives of dead 'soldiers' were never featured on CNN before. Death toles of 1,000s a day did little in the past but raise the battle-cry. Today it raises a "Peace Cry." For centuries 'leaders' little concerned themselves with battle fatalities. Today there is increasing accountability of leaders demanded than ever--one of the assumed of Democracy & of walking the 2 New Commandments. I preferr looking at the 'positives' "...not possible previously."

Roger It must be clear to you that i tend to be formed in the positive 'school'... I don't understand how one can look back over the millenniums and not be grateful to be living in 2007...

Richard Where did I assert otherwise.

RM: Could be i connected your dots incorrectly, as i perceived them???

Roger Will you please present some reasons that you fear the future, and want to play, "What if 'bad' stuff?"

Richard I fear some aspects of society today. You don’t fear this?

RM: I too am concerned with aspects of our global & neighborhood societies. I believe our best remedy to most is "honest-education." NOT indoctrination, nationalism or it's stiffling counter-part, patriotism. IMSCO, well informed, Universalist spiritually tuned folks understand the "Good News" better than most religious types have over tha past 2,000 years. "What the world needs now is..." CO-OPERATION between People & Nations. Sort-of Jesus stuff... Not Mammon competitve stuff... Ya know what i'm saying??

Roger Please don't think i'm blind to the 'evils' man imposes upon man. I am most aware of community and world injustice. They challenge all good folks to remedy the sufferings they cause.

I think one "differentiates" because humanity was/is not born depraved.

Richard I believe that humanity is born depraved.

RM: Therein lies the deception on which Christianism is based. It is rooted in a primitive, superstitious tale of creationism that responded to, and answered with ignorance, ageless questions: "how come, where from & why?" Those ancients cannot be faulted for their suppositions. However, today we can listen and look to more than a burning-bush for answers...

Roger Humankind is evolving slowly to more empathetic, thinking feeling compassionate beings than here-to-fore. If not so, then Jesus was an utter failure!

Richard Why is this the case. “This is the work of God, to believe in the one he has sent.” Jn 6:29. You appear to be confusing Jesus with Teilhard de Chardin

RM: I respectfully suggest, you seem to be confusing "belief in Christ" with "believing the teachings of Christ"?: Two New Commandments; make peace; great shall serve, not master; no need to fear, or hoard; don't invest in moth-food, or things that rust; where your heart is...

Roger OR, his message has been misconstrued over the last 2,000 years by misguided Evangelism selling sites in Heaven to those avoiding their "Stewardship" here...

Richard The last time I checked, the man who led the abolitionist movement in the UK, William Wilberforce, was an evangelical. As was Booth, Wesley, Whitfield, etc,. They all were committed to getting ready for the afterlife and improving this life.

RM: Did i say, "nothing good can come from Evangelists"? :-) Richard, of course there are good, socially consceinced Evangelicals as found in all segments of humanity: Atheists, Agnostics, Mormons, JWs, Communists, Saved etc etc...

Roger Enter John Selby Spong, as, not the first, nor will he be the last, but simply a 'current' Reformer to stir the putrid, stagnant waters of Establishment Christianism to aeration and life... As i see our vibrant advancing humanity...

Richard Spong represents a section of the old mainline churches which is rapidly dying out.

[b]RM: Possibly so. And, i suggest, that's a good thing. Probably Spong is helping that demise in hope of a new understanding of Christianism based on the simple, practical message of Jesus: How to live together in harmony, even with our differences--race, creed, gender... AS opposed to the traditional, establishment churches thrust on competing and vying for souls; man's way not "God's" way.
[/b]

Pasted below is a paragraph from Spong's latest news letter (A New Christianity For A New World). I think it addresses the age old element of "FEAR" that directs too many of our behaviors and interactions. I encourage reading the complete essay on his site: Johnshelbyspong.com (Google) to better understand the man and his mission...

Behind the rhetoric and even the hyperbole that engages so many, there is an almost pathetic quest for security among religious people. This quest always seems to be attached to the conviction that human beings actually possess an ultimate and unfailing source of truth. Even here, however, there is conflict. For Roman Catholic fundamentalists that source is the infallible papacy, while for Protestant fundamentalists it is the inerrant Bible. Above all else these claims give a sense of absoluteness to which their adherents might cling while they seek to resist what they experience as an enveloping darkness gathering around them. There is a martyr's mentality about this attitude. Literal minds pretend that the clock can be stopped and that change is not a fact of life. They portray themselves as standing firmly on God's side while everyone else compromises with modernity, betraying clearly revealed truth and thus leading the whole religious institution down the road to perdition. The so-called "decisive issue" changes in each generation, but the emotions in the "true believers" remain the same. In my lifetime, this claim to be able to quote an inerrant Bible has been employed against the church's move to be racially inclusive, to treat women with full equality and to open the church's doors to its gay and lesbian members. In each intense debate the "historic faith of the Church" or the "clear teaching of the Bible" has been cited to justify continuing the practices of racism, sexism and homophobia on the part of church people. We are witnessing today what is simply another phase of this age old mentality. Most ecclesiastical disputes are thus really about security and fear. Each reveals how easily a challenge to perceived truth can be turned into hysterical anger.

Spong answers a letter at the end of his essay, from an Anglican cleric wanting his oppinion...it elaborates many current historical facts that are informative. Very worthwhile reading... Warm regards, Roger

[_richardMdBorn]

Hi Roger,

My new comments are in bold. I wonder if anyone else is interested in this discussion. I suspect that we have exhausted the topic.

Richard I believe that humanity is born depraved.

RM: Therein lies the deception on which Christianism is based. It is rooted in a primitive, superstitious tale of creationism that responded to, and answered with ignorance, ageless questions: "how come, where from & why?" Those ancients cannot be faulted for their suppositions. However, today we can listen and look to more than a burning-bush for answers...

Richard It has been said that the doctrine of Original Sin is the one Christian doctrine that is empirically verifiable. in my opinion, recent history supports my case.

Richard Why is this the case. “This is the work of God, to believe in the one he has sent.” Jn 6:29. You appear to be confusing Jesus with Teilhard de Chardin

RM: I respectfully suggest, you seem to be confusing "belief in Christ" with "believing the teachings of Christ"?: Two New Commandments; make peace; great shall serve, not master; no need to fear, or hoard; don't invest in moth-food, or things that rust; where your heart is...

Richard What do you think about Jesus’ teaching I cited in Jn. 6:29. How do you interpret it?

[_Roger Morrison]

Good AM Richard, i agree, we've probably exhausted this topic. I think with a better undrestanding of each's position; doesn't require agreement... Simply respect & appreciation... You say:

Richard It has been said that the doctrine of Original Sin is the one Christian doctrine that is empirically verifiable. in my opinion, recent history supports my case.

As to the above: "..OS (the Fall) is the one Christian doctrine that is--'generally agreed upon'. "...empirically verifiable"??? On what hands-on-experience that is evident to sight, sound and touch? That it is a Christian-belief gives it no credibility what so ever outside of that tradition/mythology, IMSCO.

What "recent history supports" Your case?

Richard What do you think about Jesus’ teaching I cited in Jn. 6:29. How do you interpret it?

As you know, John, whomever he was, tends to add embelishments to the biography of Jesus that are not found in M, M or Luke. Does this falsify Jesus? Not necessarily, but it does glorify the legend, and give reason to question John's historical authenticity... Having said that...

To get some context out of this-teaching it must be considered with all of Jesus' other admonitions, as we have them. In my reading of the New Testament my sense is that Jesus was concerned with the pains and suffering of the family of "God" as they lived daily with each other. His efforts were directed to helping them understand their relationship to each other--their interdependence--the earth/ground from which they extracted life, and their inherent connection (never having fell) to the Spirit-of-life/"God": The entity that Jesus represented to humanity.

With 'that' understanding, it simply follows that Jesus wanted them to know "God" and how life can be mastered. That "mastery" is only attainable by learning knowing, and doing the correct things. Simplistically, "...you'll never go wrong doing right..." Through out his whole mission Jesus attempted to get his listeners to believe 'HE' was sent by "God" to teach them...

His plea: "Please believe me! I'm telling You the truth! Simply live by these TWO NEW COMMANDMENTS and your life that follows, day by day will be more joyous and satisfying than you can ever imagine!"

His message remains today. It is beyond the confinement of traditional, establishment religion that to this point in time has been blind to the real mortal application of Jesus' Universalist message.

It is time that Jesus be freed from religious bondage and be made available For The Unreligious. It can only help the spiritual/psyche and social/humanitarian causes that increasingly challenge our desire to see "Freedom reign..." I trust you read Spong's complete article... Warm regards, over'n out, Roger

[_richardMdBorn]

Hi Roger,

You may find of interest the following audio clip of part of a sermon by Martyn Lloyd-Jones which discusses some of the issues we have been debating. It’s generally changed on Tuesdays.

http://www.mlj.org.uk/audio/radio/2007-3-4.htm

More later,

Richard