Is FARMS/FAIR/MA&D trying to gain control of the church?

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_Dr. Shades
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Post by _Dr. Shades »

Fortigurn wrote:Dr. Shades, that is certainly one of the best articles on your excellent site.


Thank you, Fortigurn! You're too kind.

bcspace, which of those "Chapel Mormon" descriptors didn't apply to the wards in which you lived? And what did they believe in its place?
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_gramps
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Post by _gramps »

grayskull wrote:No.

They aren't trying to run the church. They are, however, trying to create a church within a church that is more to their liking. While Hugh Nibley was a Chapel Mormon and most contemporary apologists are Internet Mormons, they do have something in common, generally, a disdain for leadership positions and a fascination with what Elder Stanley called the "Deep Doctrinal Vortex". As Elder Maxwell observed, "Speculation seems more fun than consecration." What's better than truly believing you're immortal and destined to have sex for eternity? Believing the same but with the additional self-appointed "Get out of boring church service free" card. As Steve Young was rumored to have been told to forgoe a mission in order to QB the church to fame, there are in fact apologists who have decided to skip the mission in order to save their church with their own philosophical musings. Granted, that's not the norm, but how better ride your way to eternal glory than by pursuing an obsessive hobby or feeding an internet addiction? How convenient that one class of saints get to impress Jehova by running their mouths off against critics and idly pontificating on their own prejudices rather than having to trudge through member missionary programs, missionary splits, and all the seemingly menial tasks that the brethren conjur up to keep the masses preoccupied? Not to mention avoiding the indignity of letting the thinking be done by those who actually hold the keys to the kingdom. Internet Mormons find it far more gratifying to be "prophets of the pew", having the chance to not only one day become Gods, but to self-study their way, at their own pace, and by grading their own papers. Logging onto the FAIR message board to gossip and speculate is a true consecration of one's time and talents. Who else could Jesus have been thinking of when he declared the way straight and the gate narrow than a bunch of internet addcts, gospel hobbyists, and bitter polemicists?


Wow. Well said. Riding to eternal glory. Loved it. Keep it up.
I detest my loose style and my libertine sentiments. I thank God, who has removed from my eyes the veil...
Adrian Beverland
_jayneedoe
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Post by _jayneedoe »

bcspace wrote:That list doesn't seem to apply to any ward I've ever attended.


Oh please. If Shades said the curtains were blue you would say "Never!" just because it was Shades.

Jaynee
_why me
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Post by _why me »

I want to thank all the open minded critics who found a good opportunity to give a rant and a rave on this thread. However, all the ranting and raving will not get you very far. Farms is relevant as is the LDS church relevant, especially in this cynical world that we are all living in today. Farms is for intellect as water is to thirst. And for some LDS, they appreciate the work of farms very much. But likewise, Sunstone and Dialogue are also appreciated. Journals which approach LDS topics with respect and with dignity are appreciated by academic Mormons.

Plus, I do not read such journals just to get an insight into things LDS but also to engage in critical thinking, a way of thought that is usually always healthy. The internet has demonstrated that the LDS are not morgbots but rather, highly intelligent people who actually enjoy engaging each other. Now, if we can bring the ame positive discussions into church meetings, there would be a new vibrance in church life. Again, such discussion would have to be respectful and dignified. No flame throwers and bombers. And Farms contributes to the general knowledge of those LDS who wish to read scholarly journals and such knowledge can be shared in meetings, if a LDS person chooses to do so.

But no one is out to control the church. Lets call such groups and journals only by the name: enlightenment. They exist for self-enlightenment which can become a collective-enlightenment with time.
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

They aren't trying to run the church. They are, however, trying to create a church within a church that is more to their liking. While Hugh Nibley was a Chapel Mormon and most contemporary apologists are Internet Mormons, they do have something in common, generally, a disdain for leadership positions and a fascination with what Elder Stanley called the "Deep Doctrinal Vortex". As Elder Maxwell observed, "Speculation seems more fun than consecration." What's better than truly believing you're immortal and destined to have sex for eternity? Believing the same but with the additional self-appointed "Get out of boring church service free" card. As Steve Young was rumored to have been told to forgoe a mission in order to QB the church to fame, there are in fact apologists who have decided to skip the mission in order to save their church with their own philosophical musings. Granted, that's not the norm, but how better ride your way to eternal glory than by pursuing an obsessive hobby or feeding an internet addiction? How convenient that one class of saints get to impress Jehova by running their mouths off against critics and idly pontificating on their own prejudices rather than having to trudge through member missionary programs, missionary splits, and all the seemingly menial tasks that the brethren conjur up to keep the masses preoccupied? Not to mention avoiding the indignity of letting the thinking be done by those who actually hold the keys to the kingdom. Internet Mormons find it far more gratifying to be "prophets of the pew", having the chance to not only one day become Gods, but to self-study their way, at their own pace, and by grading their own papers. Logging onto the FAIR message board to gossip and speculate is a true consecration of one's time and talents. Who else could Jesus have been thinking of when he declared the way straight and the gate narrow than a bunch of internet addcts, gospel hobbyists, and bitter polemicists?


I just want to call attention to grayskull's post, which I think is extremely insightful into the FARM/FAIR/MAD hobbyists. I suspect that many of these participants, particularly those who participate regularly, believe that they have found a way to "serve" the Lord while sitting in the comfort of their homes typing on a computer screen. To an outsider, they may appear to be feeding their own egos (who knows more than the prophet about the Book of Mormon, after all), but I feel certain they don't view it that way themselves and actually view their internet board habit as a way of furthering the kingdom. It sure beats doing splits with the missionaries.

by the way, I never heard of FARMS when I was a member. During the period I was still clinging to my belief yet struggling with issues, I talked to many members and not one referred me to FARMs, so I suspect none of them heard of it, either. Of course I live in the mission field and left the church over ten years ago. Perhaps they're more well known now due to the internet.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

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_gramps
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Post by _gramps »

The first time I heard of FARMS, I was going to the U of U. I was in Sterling McMurrin's office and he handed me the FARMS ad hominem attack on himself and Brigham Madsen, after the Book of Mormon Studies was published.

I read it, along with both McMurrin's and Madsen's replies.

That turned me off FARMS forever. What a terrible (and even embarrassing) review, by college professors, no less.

Did anyone else ever read that? It was just horrible. I've tried to find it somewhere on the net, but it seems to be non-existent. Of course, I still have it and I pull it out once in a while, for laughs. FARMS hasn't done anything better since then, in my opinion.
I detest my loose style and my libertine sentiments. I thank God, who has removed from my eyes the veil...
Adrian Beverland
_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

Chapel Mormons will typically try and bend the facts to fit the prophets, while Internet Mormons are far more comfortable bending the prophets to fit the facts.


I believe in LDS apologetics one must take the path that prophets are actually only acting like prophets a very small amount of time. Yes Joseph Smith did say he was a prophet only when acting in the role. And I am ok with this. But when defending, it seems prophets are often not acting as prophets. I have done this myself!


When the apologists contradict the prophets, Internet Mormons almost always go with the apologists, while Chapel Mormons almost always go with the prophets.


This is rather general but I get your point and see it illustrated in the LGT theory the best.

Internet Mormons believe that the words "Lamanite" and "Native American" refer to two entirely separate cultural and linguistic groups.



Are you sure? I though FARMS position is only that there were other people here that the Nephites mingled with.

Chapel Mormons believe that the words "Lamanite" and "Native American" are interchangeable.


I think most LDS believe that the natives of North and South America are indeed the descendents of Lehi. I believe FARMs believes this at least to the extent the Lehi's blood was mingled into the natives that were here. But as a kid and growing up the theories of the land bridge and Asians migrating here uses to cause me to wonder.

Internet Mormons believe that Noah's flood was a localized event, covering only a certain area. Chapel Mormons usually believe that Noah's flood was a global event, covering the entire world.



I think what you call Chapel Mormons debate this as well.

When discussing prophetic utterances, Internet Mormons often say "it was only his opinion." Chapel Mormons almost never say "it was only his opinion," believing that a prophet's words and God's words are essentially one and the same.



This is the most accurate. I recall being quite fond of Pres Benson's 14 points about a prophet, Bruce McConkie's stand on prophets not having to say thus saith the Lord for it to be binding and doctrine as well as the idea that the conference Ensign is current scripture. Then as an apologist I back peddled on that big time and became more of what you describe above.


Internet Mormons believe that FARMS is correct and that the Hill Cumorah was located somewhere in Mesoamerica. Chapel Mormons believe that Joseph Smith was correct and that the Hill Cumorah was located in Western New York and was the same hill from which he retrieved the Golden Plates


This one you overstate. many so called chapel Mormons debate this hotly.

Internet Mormons believe that the only real and binding doctrine in Mormonism is that found between the covers of the four Standard Works--all else is mere conjecture. Chapel Mormons believe that real and binding doctrine is that which is accepted and believed by the majority of the Saints (in practice, this means that they accept the overwhelming majority of what they learn in church and in the church's official publications in addition to the four Standard Works).


Not really. I have quoted a few times here two prophets who use the standard works as the measuring rod for truth and binding doctrine. Also, see the thread on canon here where plu certainly argues differently on this.



[*]Internet Mormons tend to want to "filter" a prophet's words through both his likely cultural influences and his limited sphere of knowledge. Chapel Mormons tend to take a prophet's words at face value.[*]Internet Mormons believe that the scriptures supersede the living prophets. Chapel Mormons believe that the living prophets supersede the scriptures.[*]Internet Mormons believe that a prophet's words may not apply to at least some of the people he's addressing. Chapel Mormons tend to believe that a prophet's words apply to everyone he's addressing.[*]Chapel Mormons believe that a prophet is a foreordained man of the highest moral caliber. Internet Mormons believe that a prophet is not necessarily any better than his societal average.[/list]Related to that last bullet point, see the quote from Beastie in my signature line, below.



Well this is an interesting list and the last ones seem to be the major problem. I think it is because the LDS leaders through the years have said things we are not happy about and taught things we certainly do not believe today and in fact find odd and strange. So how can one argue out of them if what the leader said was really from God? An impossible task in for many things. So, it was only his opinion when BY taught AG and he was only acting like the majority of those in his day when he made the string and awful saying about the blacks and so it goes.
_Yoda

Re: Shades

Post by _Yoda »

Gazelam wrote:Nice list. Thanks for sharing.
From my experience I would say the truth is somewhere between the two.


I would agree with that. ;)
_Fortigurn
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Post by _Fortigurn »

Dr. Shades wrote:
Fortigurn wrote:Dr. Shades, that is certainly one of the best articles on your excellent site.


Thank you, Fortigurn! You're too kind.


Seriously, I think it's arguably the most important article on the site. When I first read it, a light went on.
_wenglund
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Post by _wenglund »

I don't know how important FARMS/FAIR/MA&D is to the Church, but I do believe it is of utmost importance to the critics on this board, if not also at RFM. Just note the proportion of threads feverishly devoted to them.

According to the "reasoning" on this thread, one must conclude that they are trying to control this board.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
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