What if you ask and the anwer is.....

[_Trojan Tapir]

I think your fundamental, core, primary challenge Jason, is to overcome this thoroughgoing and pervading hubris. This is pride, if I may say so not meaning to give offfence, in a most aggressive and implacable form, and I think it is precisely for this reason you are having your troubles with the principle of testimony, and why prayer, up to this point, has not worked for you.

I have no idea what species of arrogance or presumption could exist in your mind such that you could make statements about the metaphysical actualities and perceptions of others for them, but apparently such has come to exist in your own inner world.

I know Jesus is the Christ without any possible doubt. I know it directly and completely. I know that his church is on the earth, and that Joseph Smith was his Prophet. I know these things fully and without conceptual ambiguity because God himself has revealed them to me. I understand that you do not know, and I appreciate that, but I'm not sure at all I understand or appreciate how you think you can claim what is essentially an oracular insight into what I or other Mormons know or don't know based upon your own subjective experience of not knowing.

I do appreciate the troubles your having, but to reconcile them, I think your going to have to relinquish a great deal of the wall against doing it the Lord's way you seem to have built around the solution. You already seem to have made up your mind what the answer to your problem with revelation and testimony is, and that seems to be that the principle is, in essence, fictitious. Of course, if you've already found the answer, what point is their in the further exploration of the questions?

If you'll forgive me, I also don't really think you have a very good grasp of the meaning of the term "faith" as understood in the Restored Gospel. You are attempting to extract faith from revelation and knowledge and isolate them, and that's going to further wreck any attempts you might make to resove your questions and doubts because they cannot be so extracted and compartmentalized.

Loran

Wow. I'm not sure where to start. That was ridiculously devoid of logic from start to finish.

"I know without any doubt that [blah blah blah] and your pride/arrogance prevents you from knowing what I know." WHAT?? Seriously?? You accuse him of being prideful and arrogant for NOT being absolutely certain about the mysteries of the universe? That was a good one. Guess what, here's a newsflash for you, cog (short for cognitive dissonance, at least that's how I'll forever remember you). "God" has revealed an endless variety of mutually exclusive "knowledge" to millions of others. The Muslims? Well, God himself has directly revealed to them that Jesus was not divine. I could go on all day if I wanted. Your "revealed knowledge" is fundamentally at odds with the "revealed knowledge" of millions of others. You necessarily claim that these people's "knowledge" is false by claiming that yours is direct, complete, and without any possible doubt. Since you know [blah blah blah] "fully and without conceptual ambiguity," I'm having a hard time understanding "how you think you can claim what is essentially an oracular insight into what [each of these other persons] know or don't know based upon your own subjective experience" of "knowing"? Surely that went way over your head, but you can't blame me for trying.

"If you've already found the answer, what point is their [sic] in the further exploration of the questions?" WHAT?? Seriously?? You are the one who claims to have already found the answer. He said he didn't know for sure. You're the one who will never explore any questions.

Folks, this guy is Exhibit A in the case as to the incredible brainwashing that is done by the church.

[_ozemc]

personally have faith that Jesus is the Christ but it is faith. I do not have perfect knowledge of this. Nor do you. Nor do any LDS though they think they do.

I think your fundamental, core, primary challenge Jason, is to overcome this thoroughgoing and pervading hubris. This is pride, if I may say so not meaning to give offfence, in a most aggressive and implacable form, and I think it is precisely for this reason you are having your troubles with the principle of testimony, and why prayer, up to this point, has not worked for you.

I have no idea what species of arrogance or presumption could exist in your mind such that you could make statements about the metaphysical actualities and perceptions of others for them, but apparently such has come to exist in your own inner world.

I know Jesus is the Christ without any possible doubt. I know it directly and completely. I know that his church is on the earth, and that Joseph Smith was his Prophet. I know these things fully and without conceptual ambiguity because God himself has revealed them to me. I understand that you do not know, and I appreciate that, but I'm not sure at all I understand or appreciate how you think you can claim what is essentially an oracular insight into what I or other Mormons know or don't know based upon your own subjective experience of not knowing.

I do appreciate the troubles your having, but to reconcile them, I think your going to have to relinquish a great deal of the wall against doing it the Lord's way you seem to have built around the solution. You already seem to have made up your mind what the answer to your problem with revelation and testimony is, and that seems to be that the principle is, in essence, fictitious. Of course, if you've already found the answer, what point is their in the further exploration of the questions?

If you'll forgive me, I also don't really think you have a very good grasp of the meaning of the term "faith" as understood in the Restored Gospel. You are attempting to extract faith from revelation and knowledge and isolate them, and that's going to further wreck any attempts you might make to resove your questions and doubts because they cannot be so extracted and compartmentalized.

Loran

Wow cog, can you be a little more condescending?

Vegas, I thought the same thing.

Basically, it seems he is saying the same old line that you just keep praying until you get the "right" answer.

I always cast a jaundiced eye at someone who claims to "know the truth".

After all, you're just relying on what someone else said or wrote.

Jason,

I wish you well in your search.

For me, the answer lies in the magnificence of the universe, and not in any one "religion".

[_Great Cthulhu]

Folks, this guy is Exhibit A in the case as to the incredible brainwashing that is done by the church.

Hence the nickname Cog(dis)7

[_gramps]

I think your fundamental, core, primary challenge Jason, is to overcome this thoroughgoing and pervading hubris. This is pride, if I may say so not meaning to give offfence, in a most aggressive and implacable form, and I think it is precisely for this reason you are having your troubles with the principle of testimony, and why prayer, up to this point, has not worked for you.

I have no idea what species of arrogance or presumption could exist in your mind such that you could make statements about the metaphysical actualities and perceptions of others for them, but apparently such has come to exist in your own inner world.

I know Jesus is the Christ without any possible doubt. I know it directly and completely. I know that his church is on the earth, and that Joseph Smith was his Prophet. I know these things fully and without conceptual ambiguity because God himself has revealed them to me. I understand that you do not know, and I appreciate that, but I'm not sure at all I understand or appreciate how you think you can claim what is essentially an oracular insight into what I or other Mormons know or don't know based upon your own subjective experience of not knowing.

I do appreciate the troubles your having, but to reconcile them, I think your going to have to relinquish a great deal of the wall against doing it the Lord's way you seem to have built around the solution. You already seem to have made up your mind what the answer to your problem with revelation and testimony is, and that seems to be that the principle is, in essence, fictitious. Of course, if you've already found the answer, what point is their in the further exploration of the questions?

If you'll forgive me, I also don't really think you have a very good grasp of the meaning of the term "faith" as understood in the Restored Gospel. You are attempting to extract faith from revelation and knowledge and isolate them, and that's going to further wreck any attempts you might make to resove your questions and doubts because they cannot be so extracted and compartmentalized.

Loran

Wow. I'm not sure where to start. That was ridiculously devoid of logic from start to finish.

"I know without any doubt that [blah blah blah] and your pride/arrogance prevents you from knowing what I know." WHAT?? Seriously?? You accuse him of being prideful and arrogant for NOT being absolutely certain about the mysterious of the universe? That was a good one. Guess what, here's a newsflash for you, cog (short for cognitive dissonance, at least that's how I'll forever remember you). "God" has revealed an endless variety of mutually exclusive "knowledge" to millions of others. The Muslims? Well, God himself has directly revealed to them that Jesus was not divine. I could go on all day if I wanted. Your "revealed knowledge" is fundamentally at odds with the "revealed knowledge" of millions of others. You necessarily claim that these people's "knowledge" is false by claiming that yours is direct, complete, and without any possible doubt. Since you know [blah blah blah] "fully and without conceptual ambiguity," I'm having a hard time understanding "how you think you can claim what is essentially an oracular insight into what [each of these other persons] know or don't know based upon your own subjective experience" of "knowing"? Surely that went way over your head, but you can't blame me for trying.

"If you've already found the answer, what point is their [sic] in the further exploration of the questions?" WHAT?? Seriously?? You are the one who claims to have already found the answer. He said he didn't know for sure. You're the one who will never explore any questions.

Folks, this guy is Exhibit A in the case as to the incredible brainwashing that is done by the church.

Not just incredible brainwashing. More importantly, in my mind, evidence of the very hubris he ascribes to Jason. Searching and learning, and not knowing without a shadow of a doubt is not hubris. Only the brainwashed see it the other way around.

[_Coggins7]

What if I said "I know without any possible doubt that Mormonism is bunk." What would that say about your 'knowledge' that it's true? Would it be reasonable for me to conclude that you don't actually know it? Either you're wrong or I'm wrong. But I'm not wrong. :)

Your comparison is an apples and oranges one. To say "I know, beyond any possible doubt, that such and such is true (or not true, which is saying the same thing; both are positive declarations of knowledge of some state of affairs), is to make a personal subjective claim to absolute knowledge. If this contradicts mine, this says nothing about my knowledge since you still don't know what my knowledge may be, only what you perceive it to be within your own mental world.

If you say, "I know, beyond all doubt, what are the contents of your mental world and the degree of certainly with which you perceive those contents to be true," then you have made a personal, subjective claim to absolute knowledge of the absolute knowledge of another mind. While its true that the two statements do have some logical similarities, the first only states, like the LDS testimony, what the one making the statement knows. The second, the kind Jason has made, states, in absolute terms, what others supposedly know or don't know. The first requires only the full conviction of the one making the statement in the veracity of the statement made. The second requires a godlike knowledge of the internal mental or spiritual state of another.

Indeed, your statement that "I know without any possible doubt that Mormonism is bunk." doesn't "do" anything to the legitimacy of my statement that it isn't bunk at all. At just face value as statements, my declaration of testimony isn't any more valuable than Jason's claimed sure knowledge that I don't have one. Both are nothing more than statements. But Moroni's challenge isn't just about making statements. At this level, neither of us know whose statement is true or not. But when the statement "I know the church is true" comes with the the witness of the Spirit to another spirit, the statement becomes more than just a statement. It becomes a force.

That's the difference.

[cacheman]

But Moroni's challenge isn't just about making statements. At this level, neither of us know whose statement is true or not. But when the statement "I know the church is true" comes with the the witness of the Spirit to another spirit, the statement becomes more than just a statement. It becomes a force.

That's the difference.

Well, no, that's not much of a difference. Your statement simply joins the realm of millions of similar faith/knowledge statements based on spiritual witness. Does yours have more force, say, than the statements of the kids from Fatima? Why or why not?

[_Jason Bourne]

Jason, if what he said was your sole basis of establishing fact what kind of answer do you believe you would recieve?

Pray until you get confirmation whatever it is you are praying about is what the Church says.

[Dr. Sunstoned]

Wow. I'm not sure where to start. That was ridiculously devoid of logic from start to finish.

My statements were descriptive, they were not intended as a logical argument from premises to conclusions.


"

I know without any doubt that [blah blah blah] and your pride/arrogance prevents you from knowing what I know." WHAT?? Seriously?? You accuse him of being prideful and arrogant for NOT being absolutely certain about the mysterious of the universe?

I should probably cut this short because, in all my other discussions with you, you have shown no predilection whatever for serious critical discourse or even the ability to honesty characterize the statements of those with whom you disagree. This wil probably by lost in space, but my beleif that a sense of pride and hubris are what are causing Jason's problems with a testimony of the Gospel have nothing to do, and I did not say they had, anything with his not being "absolutely certain about the mysterious of the universe". Many people struggle with issue in the church, and that's fine. It was Jason's comment, which I've heard before from others as well, that

My SP also suggests prayer and scriptures. He also comments "Can you really say that NOTHING happened in the grove to Joseph?" Well no, I cannot say nothing happened but none of us can say WHAT happened for sure. We go by what we call the spirit. And if we get any answer different then Joseph Saw God and Jesus and told him to start the true Church we have the wrong answer.

And, even more to the point, this:

I

personally have faith that Jesus is the Christ but it is faith. I do not have perfect knowledge of this. Nor do you. Nor do any LDS though they think they do.

This absolute claim to knowledge of what I and other LDS know or do not know indicates a thoroughgoing presumptuousness and a dogmatic certitude that mirrors precisely the certitude in the testimony of other Saints that Jason finds so disconcerting. Yet Jason would not claim revelation as the source of such certitude as to the contents of my mind and heart, so what then? The difference is, I would tell Jason what I know. Jason would, even before testifying to me of what he "knows", feign tell me what I know. The difference, as I see it, is that all I'm claiming is that I know some truth about the universe. Jason is claiming he knows a truth about what is within another mind; what I know about the universe, less the universe of which he is a part. I can't know anything for him, which is why I would bear my testimony. He seems to think that what he perceives as reality must, therefore, since he perceives it, be the same reality perceived by all others. Although this sounds like something akin to solipsism, I don't think that's the problem.

That was a good one. Guess what, here's a newsflash for you, cog (short for cognitive dissonance, at least that's how I'll forever remember you). "God" has revealed an endless variety of mutually exclusive "knowledge" to millions of others. The Muslims? Well, God himself has directly revealed to them that Jesus was not divine. I could go on all day if I wanted. Your "revealed knowledge" is fundamentally at odds with the "revealed knowledge" of millions of others. You necessarily claim that these people's "knowledge" is false by claiming that yours is direct, complete, and without any possible doubt. Since you know [blah blah blah] "fully and without conceptual ambiguity," I'm having a hard time understanding "how you think you can claim what is essentially an oracular insight into what [each of these other persons] know or don't know based upon your own subjective experience" of "knowing"? Surely that went way over your head, but you can't blame me for trying.

You're just begging the question in a very big way here. Has God revealed "an endless variety of mutually exclusive "knowledge" to others, or, well, has he? That's the question, and you don't go about answering a question like that just by repeating it at length.

[_Who Knows]

Well, no, that's not much of a difference. Your statement simplies joins the realm of millions of similar faith/knowledge statements based on spiritual witness. Does yours have more force, say, than the statements of the kids from Fatima? Why or why not?

Heh - yeah, i was going along with him, until he got to that part. "Well, I have the spirit on my side, so my 'knowledge' is better than yours."

[_Boyd_K_Packer]

personally have faith that Jesus is the Christ but it is faith. I do not have perfect knowledge of this. Nor do you. Nor do any LDS though they think they do.

I think your fundamental, core, primary challenge Jason, is to overcome this thoroughgoing and pervading hubris. This is pride, if I may say so not meaning to give offfence, in a most aggressive and implacable form, and I think it is precisely for this reason you are having your troubles with the principle of testimony, and why prayer, up to this point, has not worked for you.

I have no idea what species of arrogance or presumption could exist in your mind such that you could make statements about the metaphysical actualities and perceptions of others for them, but apparently such has come to exist in your own inner world.

I know Jesus is the Christ without any possible doubt. I know it directly and completely. I know that his church is on the earth, and that Joseph Smith was his Prophet. I know these things fully and without conceptual ambiguity because God himself has revealed them to me. I understand that you do not know, and I appreciate that, but I'm not sure at all I understand or appreciate how you think you can claim what is essentially an oracular insight into what I or other Mormons know or don't know based upon your own subjective experience of not knowing.

I do appreciate the troubles your having, but to reconcile them, I think your going to have to relinquish a great deal of the wall against doing it the Lord's way you seem to have built around the solution. You already seem to have made up your mind what the answer to your problem with revelation and testimony is, and that seems to be that the principle is, in essence, fictitious. Of course, if you've already found the answer, what point is their in the further exploration of the questions?

If you'll forgive me, I also don't really think you have a very good grasp of the meaning of the term "faith" as understood in the Restored Gospel. You are attempting to extract faith from revelation and knowledge and isolate them, and that's going to further wreck any attempts you might make to resove your questions and doubts because they cannot be so extracted and compartmentalized.

Loran

I must agree with Brother Loran on this issue. The problem I see with many here is pride, plain and simple. As President Ezra Taft Benson so eloquently stated, pride is bad. Jason asked how to know which answer to prayer is correct. It is simple. The adversary can disguise his promptings to feel good and correct. This is why sinners desire to sin, because the adversary makes it feel good. It is difficult to discern true promptings from the Spirit from false promptings from the Adversary. One must be in tune in order to discern the two. The best way to keep your spiritual discernment in tune is through obedience to the commandments. Those who attend their meetings, pay a full tithe, obey their leaders, and magnefy their callings are most in tune with the spirit.

Jason, you are struggling with the adversary. He is tossing fiery darts your way. You are kicking against the pricks. I strongly counsel you to get off these computer message boards, make an appointment with your Bishop, repent of your sins, pay your tithing, and attend all your meetings. Only through obedience to the commandments can your prayers be answered.

I say these things in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

Sincerely,

President Boyd K. Packer