Blessings of Tithing?

[_SatanWasSetUp]

Nothing at all wrong with the idea that God works through people to answer prayers, but that's not what paying tithing is about. Perhaps Mak's grandmother had been asking for an opportunity to bless someone, and God told her to send Mak a check. Perhaps Mak's professor had been deperately praying for someone to help him illustrate his book, and God directed him to Mak. In those cases, neither encounter had anything to do with Mak paying his tithing.

And perhaps it all was because I payed my tithing. If you would like to make up a bunch of hypothetical scenarios to include the blessings of god but avoid attributing it to tithing then be my guest, but if God's blessing is the agreed upon method here then my explanation satisfies the law of parsimony.

Sorry to be so cynical, but experience has taught me that it's all about money for most, if not all, organizations, and the LDS church is no exception. I just get frustrated to see so many decent, hardworking people fall for the tithing racket. If you want to give the church money, that's fine, but don't do it because you think god will bless you if you do, or curse you if you don't. Treat your donations to the church like you treat donations to the Red Cross, or any other organization. Do it because you want to help an organization that needs your money to buy real estate and other investments, and don't expect any blessings in return. It's a one way donation done out of the goodness of your heart.

And why must you give 10%? Why not $20/month? or even $10? Most non-profit organizations would be happy for anything, and thank you for a $20 donation, but for the church if its less than 10% it isn't good enough.

[_Bryan Inks]

I understand your point, but what is wrong with the idea that perhaps God works through people to answer the prayers of others? I've been able to do things for people in the past that they later confided in me that they were praying for. Most answers, if not all answers to my prayers, have come through other people.

Nothing, except it is about as logically sound as The Intelligent Falling theory.

It goes hand in hand with Inconceivable's post.

Your outlook determines your reality. No arguments against it, you find what you are looking for.

The concept of prayer was designed to get that powerful tool, you subconcious mind, thinking about your problems. That's it. Prayer put you into a state of mind in which you were more likely to accept the answer that your subconscious provided.

So, if you are "praying" about someone mowing your lawn for you, because you just got out of surgery. . . guess what? Yup, anyone mows your lawn, you attribute it to God. Unfortunately, it does kind of break down a bit. "Sister So-and-So just got out of surgery. Young Men, I want two of you to go to her house every other week and mow her lawn."

From God? Or from a neighbor who found out about your incapacitated state and wants to help?

Being a firm believer in the power of the mind and the Law of Attraction, my only problem with The Secret is that while a decent introduction to the concept, they promote the Law of Attraction as being this quasi-mystical event. When in reality, it is merely your mind finding and pointing out things that you have been focusing on. A very good example of this, take a look around the room you are sitting in right now. Just for 30 seconds. Now close your eyes and recite back everything you saw. At max, you can around 150. But are there only 150 things to notice? It sounds stupid to have to right it out, but you see the things you look at.

Does The Secret work? Debatable. Try it on something completely mundane. I tried it on green traffic lights. I hate waiting in traffic. So, rather than focusing on "No Red Lights" (because your subconscious cannot understand a negative), I focused on "Just Green Lights". I haven't sat at a traffic light for longer than 30 seconds since I started this. Now, I argue that this is as much a product of the The Secret as it is me conditioning myself. Do I honestly believe that I haven't been stuck for longer? No. But I can rationalize those few times away, in the same manner as someone's Blessing from Tithing.

Oh, geez, are you talking about that silly book The Secret? I've got some friends at an office I used to work at that have been reading it. It's a riot. I'm glad someone's finding some way to apply it, but in five years when the next pseudo-scientific book comes out that promises to hold the key to happiness and you abandon The Secret to subscribe to those theories you're gonna look as silly as the people who abandoned the Celestine Prophecy for The Secret. Then when it happens again five years after that it's gonna get even sillier.

LRN2RAED

[_guy sajer]

There is no such thing as a "direct" benefit/blessing from the paying of tithing (unless you want to count "feeling the spirit" as a blessing/benefit). I defy anyone---TBM or otherwise---to demonstrate that tithing has led to any kind of legitimate benefit/blessing. I suppose one could argue that the SLC mall is a "benefit," but then again, that would entail admitting that tithing was used to pay for it... Oh, well!

When I first joined the church I was way in debt. I struggled with tithing for a while. When I finally payed it, including all the back-tithing from since I got baptized. It hurt me a lot. A few days before some substantial bills were due I had absolutely nothing and no way of getting money to pay any of those bills. Out of nowhere I get a check in the mail from my grandmother. My birthday had come and gone long before, but she suddenly just decided she was going to start sending me money again for my birthday, and she was going to start by making up for the birthday I had earlier that year. I've payed my tithing faithfully since then and I've only had one real problem since: A few months after I got married my wife and I were severely behind in our bills. She had been in and out of the hospital a few times and doctor bills were piling up. Both of us were going to school and couldn't work much. A few big bills were looming, but we used virtually all of our money to pay a few weeks of tithing we had missed. One day out of nowhere a professor comes up to me and asks me if I knew who drew the poster for the Students of the Ancient Near East club. I said I drew it a long time ago and he asks me if I wanted to illustrate a book for him. He paid me well and we got the money two days before those bills were due. I've worked part time illustrating books for three different professors ever since.

You guys can say what you want about tithing, but there's nothing in heaven or on earth that will ever convince me that it is not an enormous and completely real blessing. As long as I've payed my tithing the money has shown up, whether it be by mundane or miraculous means.

How many counterexamples would be sufficient to convince you that this is not a universalizable, or even generalizable, principle?

The high bankruptcy rate in Utah suggests (not proves) that there are indeed a non-trivial number of counterexamples.

Aside from this, it would take little effort to find many actual counterexamples.

We can also, with little trouble, find many, many examples of people who receive the same "blessings," but who do not pay tithing, including apostates such as moi. (Like others, my income has increased significantly since I quit paying tithing.)

How many of these would be necessary for you to conclude that tithe paying offers no unique value added?

Mak has provided us with a classic example of the fallacy "generalizing from a sample size of one."

[_guy sajer]

And perhaps it all was because I payed my tithing. If you would like to make up a bunch of hypothetical scenarios to include the blessings of god but avoid attributing it to tithing then be my guest, but if God's blessing is the agreed upon method here then my explanation satisfies the law of parsimony.

I think that all of these hypotheticals could have come into play...including the fact that you paid your tithing.

;)

Precisely. In the end, attributing a particular occurrence to divine intervention is a choice based on perspective.

Exactly. If I were still a full tithe paying TBM, I might have attributed my bonus and raise to GOD - a blessing for paying tithing. But obviously that's not the reason.

I just don't see any correlation.

The old bishop in my ward went over a year without a job. There's other family's in my ward who can barely survive. We had to round up some donations from various folks in the neighboorhood/ward to donate some money to one family so they could buy a van for their enormous (7 kids) family. These are all tithe payers.

And then you have tithe payers who do very well. But you have non-tithe payers who are also very well off. And you have non-tithe payers who struggle with money.

Is there any correlation here? Is there any connection at all? What do you say to those who pay their tithing yet struggle with money?

Again, how do you know your good fortune is from God - for paying tithing?

For that matter, what portion of Mak's "blessing," can be attribed to prudent financial decision making (and actually having a job) compared to the portion that is attributable to tithing.

If, say, one group of persons has average financial habits but pays a faithful tithing and another group higher than average financial habits but does not pay tithing, which group do you think will have the higher incidence of financial difficulties, all else equal?

[_neworder]

I stopped paying tithing for the first time in 30 years and now I can afford health insurance for the entire family. wOOt!

[_guy sajer]

I stopped paying tithing for the first time in 30 years and now I can afford health insurance for the entire family. wOOt!

Yes, but just think of all the theortical and purposely vague blessings you're missing out on by not paying your tithing.

Remember also that God won't love you as much unless you forego health insurance so that you can send in your 10% to the billion dollar corporation.

[_Mister Scratch]

Well then, you've just proved my point. Your upturn of fortune was not the result of your tithe, but rather it was the result of your grandmother's generosity.

And any blessings received from paying tithing must not be at all the result of any human interaction. I see. Blessings are not valid if any humans have taken part.

Gee, didn't go fleeing with your tail between your legs from another thread after you accused me of "putting words in [your] mouth"? I did not say anything about blessings being "invalid." I said that they could not be traced to tithing. Or would you care to offer up another example?

Here is an important question for you: Did you [b]expect[/u] to receive a blessing of some kind as "payment" for your tithe? I.e., were you looking for things (such as your grandma's generosity) which could somehow be linked up to your tithing payments?

No, I just wanted to be faithful to the promise I made. It didn't occur to me until much later that what had happened could have been the result of tithing.

The fact that the realization occurred retrospectively does not make a difference. An expectation of blessings is still an expectation, even if it occurs later on. Or would you rather I revise my question to say, "Did you later try to attribute your upswing in fortune to your payment of tithing"?

Ah, well then, that settles it. Are you not the same guy who was scolding me for "appeals to emotion" on another thread? ; )

And are you not the same guy who repeatedly ignored my objection to it as you continued to manifest it? I'm just telling you how I feel, I never expected anyone to take me seriously; and I especially am not trying to influence the sensitivities of anyone else or try to make you appear like a monster.

???? You sound upset, Mak. Let's talk about this.

Nothing you have described could be legitimately labeled "miraculous."

And coming from a man who appears to completely deny the existence of miracles that means what?

Where have I ever denied "the existence of miracles"?

Anyways, Mak---I have to tell you, I am still waiting with baited breath to hear your full explanation of Church finances. When do you see your MP again? A coupla weeks? I can hardly wait!

[_maklelan]

If it comforts you, continue to believe what you do. I'm just saying there are other explanations that are at least as believable.

I know there are other explanations that also work, but there's no need to call my perspective "unfortunate" or act as if there's something wrong with the way I see the situation.

[_maklelan]

Precisely. In the end, attributing a particular occurrence to divine intervention is a choice based on perspective.

Which is the way I choose to see it, and I'm open to other interpretations, but to be critical of my interpretation while preserving hte probablity that God intervened but in another capacity is just silly.

[_maklelan]

Mak has provided us with a classic example of the fallacy "generalizing from a sample size of one."

What about the fallacy of addressing an argument completely different than the one addressed by my post? An individual requested examples of blessings from tithing and I shared a couple of examples that I believe to be blessings from tithing. If you would like to turn this thread into proving that all miracles can just conveniently be classified as coincidences with one fell stroke (and I do mean fell) then I'll bow out. If you want to say "Hey, you can feel that way if you wish, but I feel differently," like a few others then I appreciate your input and we can all move on. Blessings have never been defined as something miraculous, and they do not preclude human intervention, so there's really no reason for calling me out like this.