Utah #1 in nation in teen suicides

[_hermanuno]

Wow! How can any conclusions be drawn from this stat without pointing at the Mormon religion? We (Utah) lead the nation in teen suicide. How could the LDS church not be responsible when there is no bigger influence on people in general in the state? It also puts more guilt on people than anything else. Teenagers, boys and girls, are running around in a hormone fueled psychosis and the church's message to them is that they are unclean and nasty and dirty.

Sono is absolutely correct. I was taught that sex was only for procreation. Touching yourself was a huge sin. To think about another human in a sexual way was the exact same thing as actually committing the actual sin.

An adult male sets you in his office as a 14 year old boy and asks if you masturbate. Asks you about your "dirty" thoughts. Asks if your thoughts ever wander over to the young women's bodies. Then proceeds to tell you it is a sin? In the mean time you got an erection because he used the term "young women's bodies" and that is all you and your little factory can think about!!! And you're supposed to feel good about yourself? Hell no! You are going to feel like the lowest scum on the planet. Guilty as hell.

My God, to even think about skipping a meeting was the same as not going, and you know how the church feels about skipping a meeting with their constant head counts and record keeping.

The entire organization is designed around keeping a person in line through coercion and guilt. But, noooooo this would never cause depression in a young person.

[_Runtu]

Wow! How can any conclusions be drawn from this stat without pointing at the Mormon religion? We (Utah) lead the nation in teen suicide. How could the LDS church not be responsible when there is no bigger influence on people in general in the state? It also puts more guilt on people than anything else. Teenagers, boys and girls, are running around in a hormone fueled psychosis and the church's message to them is that they are unclean and nasty and dirty.

Sono is absolutely correct. I was taught that sex was only for procreation. Touching yourself was a huge sin. To think about another human in a sexual way was the exact same thing as actually committing the actual sin.

An adult male sets you in his office as a 14 year old boy and asks if you masturbate. Asks you about your "dirty" thoughts. Asks if your thoughts ever wander over to the young women's bodies. Then proceeds to tell you it is a sin? In the mean time you got an erection because he used the term "young women's bodies" and that is all you and your little factory can think about!!! And you're supposed to feel good about yourself? Hell no! You are going to feel like the lowest scum on the planet. Guilty as hell.

My God, to even think about skipping a meeting was the same as not going, and you know how the church feels about skipping a meeting with their constant head counts and record keeping.

The entire organization is designed around keeping a person in line through coercion and guilt. But, noooooo this would never cause depression in a young person.

I can honestly say that was my experience as well. I tried so hard to be the "perfect" Mormon kid and was still filled with guilt and shame over even the most minor thing (such as the skipping meetings thing you describe). I too was taught that my sexual desires were dirty and wrong, and heaven forbid I touch myself "inappropriately." Ironically, the first time I heard about masturbation was in a bishop's office. I had no idea what he was talking about, so he helpfully explained it to me. How screwed up is that?

I suspect that a lot of Mormons have had similar experiences. And I have indeed suffered from clinical depression (thanks for reminding me to take my prozac this morning). But still I'm reluctant to extrapolate my experience to other people. I'm content to recognize the effects the church has had in my own life (and in yours as well). I can be reasonably certain you and I are correct about that.

[_guy sajer]

It's a startling statistic, but I do think we should explore the concept that suicide is a legitimate life choice, and that those who take that choice willingly most frequently do so for reasons they understand better than we do. It's important that people find their own reconciliation with their inner self, especially if it grants them what they feel they need, and it's not harming anyone else. I do think that suicide is given a very bad press, when far more destructive behaviours are given societal approval.

I'm trying to wrap my mind around suicide being a legitimate life choice. Suicide is not an acceptable choice for a teenage as far as I'm concerned. Suicide for the terminally ill is a completely different issue, but teen suicide is totally unacceptable, at least that's my opinion.

I'm with you on this one. It's a pretty destructive behavior if you ask me.

I'm not denying that it's destructive behaviour, I'm suggesting that it's a legitimate life choice like any other. I think the modern secular world is very superstitious about death (our burial rituals are almost as elaborate as the Egyptians, and like them we frequently practice embalming and the preservation of corpses in various ways), and suicide has a shocking stigma attached to it. Perhaps it's the product of capitalism, the outrage expressed towards a member of society who deprives others of their work (and therefore profit).

Fort, I understand what you are saying. I think that you're comment needs to be qualified with the proviso that the person making this "life choice" is rational and capable of making a reasoned, informed decision.

I have difficulties accepting that many or most teenagers satisfy these criteria.

This proviso certainly does not apply to persons with mental illness, including depression.

The other issue to consider is that suicide imposes significant burdens on loved ones left behind. It is not a "private exchange," if you will, with no third party costs. In fact, the third party costs can be substantial.

So, while I have sympathy with what I think you are arguing, I think it needs to be qualified, and I think that other issues need to be considered as well--it is certainly not cut and dried, in either direction.

[_maklelan]

Yes mak, I will swear to you by the blood of my own body that I'm not taking anything I said out of context or embelishing anything. As a man going through Mormonism in western washington, those where the kinds of things I was told regularly. Needless to say, it screwed me up for many years. I'm admitedly still trying to get around some of the programing.

And were they told to you as official church doctrine, (because they contradict church doctrine) or is it perhaps just your subjective interpretation jaded by critical retrospection? Or more likely still, are they the teachings of another person who misinterpreted them beforehand?

[_Jason Bourne]

You are told that natural urges of the body are sinfull and wrong (they are beautifull)

No the urges are not sinful. Acting on them in anyway outside of marriage is. This is what the Church teaches.

[_Jason Bourne]

[quote="Sono_hito"]mak, I was told by my own bishop that if you have sinned in the mind, you have sinned of the flesh. Likewise, if you have had a carnal thought of a woman under any context you have sinned and are in need of repentance.

He went so far as to tell me that if I had a "naughty" dream, since dreams are completely controlable(in his world view), that I have basicly commited adultery and need to confess/repent. I was also told that anything that arose any kind of sexual feelings, such as even seeing unworn underware was sinfull.

So don't tell me that sex isn't told off as being wrong and sinfull.[/quote

That bishop was an idiot.

Even BKP gave a talk about 8 or so years ago and said the temptations coming into one's minds is not a sin.

[_Who Knows]

Didn't BKP also say that wet dreams were the body's natural way of releasing the pressure build up in the little factory? Or something like that...

[_maklelan]

Didn't BKP also say that wet dreams were the body's natural way of releasing the pressure build up in the little factory? Or something like that...

Well that's what they are.

[_Runtu]

And were they told to you as official church doctrine, (because they contradict church doctrine) or is it perhaps just your subjective interpretation jaded by critical retrospection? Or more likely still, are they the teachings of another person who misinterpreted them beforehand?

Here's the problem, mak. What is "church doctrine" is a nebulous concept. When I worked for the church, we were told that whatever was in canonized scripture was doctrine. Anything that had been through a correlation review and published by the church (since 1970) was considered consistent with scripture. If I took an hour or so, I'm quite sure I could find stuff in published church materials to support just about everything Sono_hito said. And I could find quotes supporting your take on it. Who's right? What is LDS doctrine?

[_maklelan]

And were they told to you as official church doctrine, (because they contradict church doctrine) or is it perhaps just your subjective interpretation jaded by critical retrospection? Or more likely still, are they the teachings of another person who misinterpreted them beforehand?

Here's the problem, mak. What is "church doctrine" is a nebulous concept. When I worked for the church, we were told that whatever was in canonized scripture was doctrine. Anything that had been through a correlation review and published by the church (since 1970) was considered consistent with scripture. If I took an hour or so, I'm quite sure I could find stuff in published church materials to support just about everything Sono_hito said. And I could find quotes supporting your take on it. Who's right? What is LDS doctrine?

That's why we find a living prophet so important.