Bokovoy on the warpath again

[_Runtu]

I guess I see this as working backwards, David. We already know that Joseph Smith borrowed heavily from the King James Bible in the Book of Mormon, and it seems to me that rather than looking at Isaiah 6 as a validation of the Book of Abraham, it makes at least as much sense to see it as a source.

Admittedly, I don't know much of anything about the scholarship you've quote, but logic tells me that unless you have a particularly compelling reason to believe that there's some "shocking" connection here, you've not said much other than that the Book of Abraham reflects what Joseph believed about the Old Testament.

[_Enuma Elish]

What nonsense.

Nonsense that will soon appear in a book published by Oxford University Press. Could I recommend that you read David Wright's article before you dismiss his research as "nonsense"?

This last post illustrates why I have better things to do than try and discuss these issues with you.


Goodbye.

[_Fortigurn]

But we don't have that in the Bible. That's the point.

If the pattern for a divine council story was explict in the Bible then we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

At least you acknowledge that the 'divine council story' in which you believe isn't explicit in the Bible. That's a start.

Never happens in the Bible.

Of course it does. That's what those studies I cited discuss.

For example, the pattern provides the conceptual background to biblical call narratives such as Isaiah 6. In his story of prophetic commission, Isaiah described the members of God’s council as seraphim who praised the “Lord of hosts” seated upon the heavenly throne (Isaiah 6:1–3). Through a purificatory ritual, Isaiah became a member of this heavenly council and therefore responded to God’s question, “whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” with the statement, “here am I; send me” (v. 8).

The critical element you're missing is a saviour. Isaiah 6 is the only passage you provide as an example of this 'saviour sent by the Divine council' pattern in the Bible, and one glance at it shows it doesn't stack up. There's no discussion of a crisis, there's no call for a saviour, there's no Divine appointment of a Divine being as saviour - nothing like what you described. Nor do we find this pattern in the other Divine council passages (Genesis 1:26, 1 Kings 22). It's just not there.

The mouth-cleansing rituals are the only substantive parallels you have with proximate non-Israelite texts, and that's not the issue we're discussing. I see what others mean now when they say you switch the subject when your arguments are addressed directly.

The text of Abraham 3:23-24 sounds like a mangled version of 1 Kings 22:20-22, which is exactly what we would expect of Smith.

[cacheman]

Hello Runtu,

Joseph did not say that he gained a knowledge of the divine council through learning about the Hebrew word Elohim. That was Kevin's misreading of the sermon.

I don't think that's a misreading of the sermon, but I'm not surprised that we disagree.

I'm sorry to disappoint. As you know from reading the thread, I do not disagree with Ritner's translation of the papyri. I disagree with the anti-LDS tone he used in JNES. It was inappropriate. I can assure you that I would raise the same complaint if Ritner had been discussing the Qur'an as "scripture," as sheer “nonsense,” and as an "absurdity."

Best,

--David

I guess what disappoints me is that, when I tried to engage DCP last year about the Ritner article, he told me I had no business discussing it until I had read all the relevant scholarship. I asked him for suggestions, and he gave me a list of articles from Gee et al., which I dutifully read. So I asked again, and I got the "his tone is disrespectful" line, and that was it. So, it was a little frustrating to hear you say the same thing. I was pleased to see that you acknowledge that the translation is not literal. I honestly don't know how people like Her Amun can make a case for the facsimiles and keep a straight face.

Either way, I really enjoy civil and honest discussion. I've reached my conclusions about the church, as have you. That we disagree doesn't mean we can't get along and maybe even be "edified" as section 50 puts it.

[_Fortigurn]

What nonsense.

Nonsense that will soon appear in a book published by Oxford University Press.

Ah, expensive nonsense.

Could I recommend that you read David Wright's article before you dismiss his research as "nonsense"?

Yes you can, but I don't need to. His idea is simply a repeat of 19th century ideas which were debunked decades ago. I mean to say, have you read any of the current literature discussing the old 'Mosaic-legal-code-and-commentary-lifted-gratuitously-from-Hammurabi' literature? I have.

I note you failed to deal with any of the points in which I directly addressed your own argument. I believe you just added to my sig.

[_Enuma Elish]

I guess I see this as working backwards, David. We already know that Joseph Smith borrowed heavily from the King James Bible in the Book of Mormon, and it seems to me that rather than looking at Isaiah 6 as a validation of the Book of Abraham, it makes at least as much sense to see it as a source.

Admittedly, I don't know much of anything about the scholarship you've quote, but logic tells me that unless you have a particularly compelling reason to believe that there's some "shocking" connection here, you've not said much other than that the Book of Abraham reflects what Joseph believed about the Old Testament.

I would never argue that the information I've given proves that Joseph was an inspired Propeht. I do feel that it provides some evidence. I see it as quite compelling, but then again, I do have a testimony, which no doubt results in a bit of bias on my own part. Hopefully my views will be a bit clearer in a forthcoming response to Michael Heiser who runs the Divinecouncil.com website published in the FARMS Review. I'll welcome your comments.

Regards,

--DB

[_Runtu]

I would never argue that the information I've given proves that Joseph was an inspired Propeht. I do feel that it provides some evidence. I see it as quite compelling, but then again, I do have a testimony, which no doubt results in a bit of bias on my own part. Hopefully my views will be a bit clearer in a forthcoming response to Michael Heiser who runs the Divinecouncil.com website published in the FARMS Review. I'll welcome your comments.

Regards,

--DB

I can and do respect your position here. I won't ever argue with a testimony, as it is a very personal thing. I look forward to reading your response to Heiser (of course, now I'm going to have to read Heiser).

Good apologetics discussion is interesting and enjoyable. Maybe it's a character flaw, but I do enjoy reading bad apologetics (see my response to John Clark a couple of months ago). But it's refreshing to hear someone who has a realistic idea of the limitations of apologetics. Too often I see the Her Amun/consiglieri "So THERE!" school of apologetics. It gets a little tiring.

John

[_Who Knows]

Hmmm, I wonder if someone could possibly tie this into the Gods of greek mythology.

In Greek mythology, Zeus (Jupiter in Roman mythology) was the king of heaven and Earth and of all the Olympian gods. He was also known as the god of justice. He was named king of the gods in the special meeting that followed his overthrow of the god Cronus (Saturn in Roman mythology) and the Titans. In the council of the gods that followed, Zeus was crowned Lord of Heaven and Earth and of all the gods.

Very interesting indeed....

[_Enuma Elish]

Who Knows,

Hmmm, I wonder if someone could possibly tie this into the Gods of greek mythology.

Indeed, see Philippe Talon,“Enuma Elis and the Transmission of Babylonian Cosmology to the West,” Mythology and Mythologies (Helsinki: Neo-Assyrian Text Corpus Project, 2001), 265-267.

We also know that the Epic of Gilgamesh (as well as perhaps the Canaanite Baal Cycle) had a direct impact upon the Greek view of the divine council; see especially Louis H. Feldman, “Homer and the Near East: The Rise of the Greek Genius,” Biblical Archeologist 59 (1996): 13-21.

[_Who Knows]

Who Knows,

Hmmm, I wonder if someone could possibly tie this into the Gods of greek mythology.

Indeed, see Philippe Talon,“Enuma Elis and the Transmission of Babylonian Cosmology to the West,” Mythology and Mythologies (Helsinki: Neo-Assyrian Text Corpus Project, 2001), 265-267.

We also know that the Epic of Gilgamesh (as well as perhaps the Canaanite Baal Cycle) had a direct impact upon the Greek view of the divine council; see especially Louis H. Feldman, “Homer and the Near East: The Rise of the Greek Genius,” Biblical Archeologist 59 (1996): 13-21.

Heh. Now all i have to do is place a copy of Iliad or Odyssey in the hands of Joseph Smith (or maybe in the nearby library).