Bill Hamblin: "The Book of Mormon is Historically Fallible."

[_Mister Scratch]

I really don't think Hamblin and Sorenson are at loggerheads here as is claimed. The core point regarding texts is attaching actual names to Book of Mormon places, such as cities or regions, which is not possible at this point, and may never be, as we have no understanding of a number of the ancient languages used.

But, as has been pointed out, this seems a red herring. Why would Joseph Smith translate the wrong names? Or even different names, for that matter? Why would the ancient scribes have written incorrect names? That is what seems so wrongheaded about the approach of Profs. Hamblin, Sorenson, and et. al. To claim that the names would be different from the names in the Book of Mormon is tantamount to admitting that the Book of Mormon itself is flawed historically (hence my OP). Do the LDS apologists really want to go down that road?

Sorenson is looking at physical evidence and asking whether or not connections to Book of Mormon peoples are plausible.

And yet if you go back and inspect Prof. Hamblin's posts, you will see that he believes that "empirical evidence" of the variety Sorenson is looking for is "impossible." What's "inconsistent" about Hamblin's position is that he likes to discredit "empirical evidence" that supports other ancient cultures, but appears to be totally gung-ho about "empirical evidence" which would help to verify the Book of Mormon.

I don't think these are necessarily inconsistent. Indeed, is some Rosetta stones do eventually turn up, it would be just as relevant to the plausibility or lack thereof of Sorenson's approach to placing Book of Mormon peoples as Hamblin's

More on this later after I've had a chance to study the matter a little more.

I find it very interesting indeed that you were just lecturing The Dude and others on their "lack of knowledge," and yet here you are admitting that you are uninformed on this "matter."

[_beastie]

I have to say, after reading the whole thread, this argument of Hamblin's is one of the most desperate I've seen yet.

[Anonymous]

Yes, Argos gave me a two week suspension for loosing my temper and calling Hamblin a "huge jerk". This is the breaking point.

I just got back from suspension after asking DCP if he'd actually read The God Delusion (which he was trashing) -- ooh, shudder, don't ask the big cheese a direct yes/no question!

I won't sit out for two weeks just to go back and have people like Hamblin and DCP treat me like dirt, treating me to the most humiliating condescentions, virtually pissing on my rug, and not be able to dish it right back to them without the MAD moderators punishing and scolding me. I get no respect from the big cheeses, I get no respect from the Mods. There comes a time when I have to say "aw f*ck it, man."

(I imagine Hamblin shouting as I walk away, "The bums will always lose-- do you hear me, Dude? THE BUMS WILL ALWAYS--" I presume Coggins imagines this too....)

I registered a sock puppet named "Get No Respect" and made up a thread of 20 posts in the introduction folder. Then I PM'ed Argos and told her to go ahead and cut to the chase: ban me. I'm through with them. If I can't speak my mind, I can't maintain self respect.

(Dr. Steuss posted a bunch of quotes from Kurt Vonnegut (who died last night) in that "Get No Respect" thread, and one of them I just love: Who is more to be pitied, a writer bound and gagged by policemen or one living in perfect freedom who has nothing more to say? Shall I tattoo it on my forehead now?)

Ouch. Sorry to hear you're leaving the MAD board. Hope you'll stick around here and roll in the filth with the rest of us Banites.

[_beastie]

Ouch. Sorry to hear you're leaving the MAD board. Hope you'll stick around here and role in the filth with the rest of us Banites.

Hey, I'm no Banite. I'm a conscientious objector. ;)

[_Bond...James Bond]

Ouch. Sorry to hear you're leaving the MAD board. Hope you'll stick around here and role in the filth with the rest of us Banites.

Hey, I'm no Banite. I'm a conscientious objector. ;)

No the tribe voted....you're in.

[_beastie]

No the tribe voted....you're in.

Well, then, we'd better win. ;)

[_Yoda]

Hi Dude! :)

I'm sorry they treated you that way, but I can't say I'm surprised.

I LOVED your "Get No Respect" thread. LOL!

For the record, I like Seinfeld better than Frasier, too!

To echo Bond's request, I hope you continue to contribute here.

I always enjoy your posts.

:)

Liz

[_harmony]

Yes, Argos gave me a two week suspension for loosing my temper and calling Hamblin a "huge jerk". This is the breaking point.

I just got back from suspension after asking DCP if he'd actually read The God Delusion (which he was trashing) -- ooh, shudder, don't ask the big cheese a direct yes/no question!

I won't sit out for two weeks just to go back and have people like Hamblin and DCP treat me like dirt, treating me to the most humiliating condescentions, virtually pissing on my rug, and not be able to dish it right back to them without the MAD moderators punishing and scolding me. I get no respect from the big cheeses, I get no respect from the Mods. There comes a time when I have to say "aw f*ck it, man."

(I imagine Hamblin shouting as I walk away, "The bums will always lose-- do you hear me, Dude? THE BUMS WILL ALWAYS--" I presume Coggins imagines this too....)

I registered a sock puppet named "Get No Respect" and made up a thread of 20 posts in the introduction folder. Then I PM'ed Argos and told her to go ahead and cut to the chase: ban me. I'm through with them. If I can't speak my mind, I can't maintain self respect.

(Dr. Steuss posted a bunch of quotes from Kurt Vonnegut (who died last night) in that "Get No Respect" thread, and one of them I just love: Who is more to be pitied, a writer bound and gagged by policemen or one living in perfect freedom who has nothing more to say? Shall I tattoo it on my forehead now?)

I get the feeling you're surprised. And I'm wondering why that is so? Did you think your position as Favorite Pet Critic made you bulletproof? On the contrary, all it did was paint a bright red target on your back. I don't mean to be mean, but really... you're a smart guy. Surely you saw this coming. The only way for MAD to win is to get rid of those who argue substantively. You've been walking on thin ice for quite some time. They did what is expected of them, to protect one who represents their bread and butter.

The only way to sink the good ship MAD is for the critics to abandon ship. Without critics, MAD simply dries up. Apologists think they can't survive on an unmoderated forum like this one, so they won't venture forth out of their protected bubble, resulting in repeated MAD threads of them patting themselves on the back ad nauseum for their pathetic scholarship. Critics can't survive on a forum set up like MAD, resulting in the one-sided presentation the apologists prefer. The bigger the apologist, the more convoluted the argument, the bigger the bubble, the more stringent the protection.

If you want the apologists, especially the paid professionals, to engage, critics have to have a united front. The lack of a united front is what cost the Native Americans this country, 'way back in the 1700's. It's what led to repression of the Colonies by the British. What is needed is a Tea Party, an action that results in the mass exodus of critics from MAD and then a boycott. Once the apologists realize no one is going to play in their sandbox, perhaps they'll come here looking for another place to play.

(Boy, when I mix metaphors, I really mix them!)

[_Bond...James Bond]

The Dude (and his sockpuppet) hasn't been banned yet. I guess this is keeping in line with the policy of not banning pundits (which apparently has saved beastie thus far). I wonder if they'll simply disable The Dude's posting ability (like Yong Xi is apparently)....making the appearance that The Dude isn't banned....but in reality is.

[_Who Knows]

Dude, maybe instead of calling him a jerk, you could have done something like this:

h
a
m
b
l
i
n

i
s

b
u
t
t
h
e
a
d

Maybe you wouldn't have gotten suspended?