Battle Royale (with cheese)

[_Sam Harris]

Bishop can visit Merc's wife if he likes, and only if Merc says so.

Uh.... no. Only if Mercury says so? Since when does a wife have to ask her husband for permission to be visited by her own clergy?

Ok, I'll retract that...but why should Merc have to be part of it?

A few more thoughts on this:

Has Merc ever given the impression that he is opressing his family with regards to the church? He seems to love his wife and family very much, wasn't he just exulting over the birth of a baby girl? Has Merc ever said that he forces his family to avoid the church? If not, then why must he and his home be subject (why must anyone be subject who does not want to be) to the visits of a bishop when they decide to leave the church?

I see this as a control issue, I'm sorry. When you decide to leave another church, they let you go. They don't hold all these meetings with you and make you explain yourself. If one spouse decides not to come to church, the pastor doesn't show up on the doorstep, it is generally known that all church resources are available at church.

If it were me, and I had an LDS spouse, bishops, members of church presidency and missionaries would not be welcome at my house. Home and Visiting teachers are different, because from my previous experience, they always brought a friendlier, less formal feeling with them. But if I were paying for the upkeep of that house, and I had decided that I didn't want to be part of a faith, and someone who was a clergymember of that faith kept insisting that I needed to meet with them to explain myself, he'd eventually meet with me in court to explain himself to a judge.

I thought about it...it's just not right. Merc took the high road and was civil, but I really do think it's his call whether or not bishop keeps invading his home, demanding to talk about why Merc isn't a member. If bishop just wants to talk to Mrs. Merc and little Mercs, that's different, but the family Merc is still active, right? Hence they see bishop. Why not make inquiries at church? Why does the personal space have to become involved?

I remember feeling very uncomfortable when sitting in my living room with people who barely knew me (and who really didn't care, despite what folks may try to say), who were trying to bear their testimonies about the mistake I was making, and asking for an explanation of my feelings (one they knew beforehand they wouldn't accept).

[_harmony]

A few more thoughts on this:

Has Merc ever given the impression that he is opressing his family with regards to the church? He seems to love his wife and family very much, wasn't he just exulting over the birth of a baby girl? Has Merc ever said that he forces his family to avoid the church? If not, then why must he and his home be subject (why must anyone be subject who does not want to be) to the visits of a bishop when they decide to leave the church?

I see this as a control issue, I'm sorry. When you decide to leave another church, they let you go. They don't hold all these meetings with you and make you explain yourself. If one spouse decides not to come to church, the pastor doesn't show up on the doorstep, it is generally known that all church resources are available at church.

If it were me, and I had an LDS spouse, bishops, members of church presidency and missionaries would not be welcome at my house. Home and Visiting teachers are different, because from my previous experience, they always brought a friendlier, less formal feeling with them. But if I were paying for the upkeep of that house, and I had decided that I didn't want to be part of a faith, and someone who was a clergymember of that faith kept insisting that I needed to meet with them to explain myself, he'd eventually meet with me in court to explain himself to a judge.

I thought about it...it's just not right. Merc took the high road and was civil, but I really do think it's his call whether or not bishop keeps invading his home, demanding to talk about why Merc isn't a member. If bishop just wants to talk to Mrs. Merc and little Mercs, that's different, but the family Merc is still active, right? Hence they see bishop. Why not make inquiries at church? Why does the personal space have to become involved?

I remember feeling very uncomfortable when sitting in my living room with people who barely knew me (and who really didn't care, despite what folks may try to say), who were trying to bear their testimonies about the mistake I was making, and asking for an explanation of my feelings (one they knew beforehand they wouldn't accept).

Not where I was going with it at all, GIMR. In my state, even if she never puts a penny into the house herself, it's her house too. If she wants to see the bishop at her house, I see no reason why she has to ask Merc to do so. Merc doesn't have to be there, if he doesn't want to be. If the bishop wants to see Merc, that's a different deal. But if Mrs Merc wants to see her bishop in her home, she doesn't have to ask Merc for permission to do so.

[_Sam Harris]

If it were me, and if my spouse were LDS, I would be admantly against having local church presidency and missionaries doing missionary work in my house. That is what the church is for. This is why:

I'm sorry, but I do not feel the bishop to be clergy. Clergy are people who go to school to study how to lead a flock spiritually, not a bunch of suits who follow a church handbook who are chosen based on above all, their willingness to obey SLC. Bishops do not give sermons every sunday, they do not lead in the same way other mainstream pastors and clergy do. They judge more than they dispense advice, and 90% of their interaction with their wardmembers is based on worthiness. My experience with bishops and councilors has been one of shame, and I would not want them in my home if I were to marry an LDS man. Not that this would ever happen, but hypothetically. You go to church, you have your beliefs. As your wife, I have a right to have a home that's heaven too, and it cannot be heaven if someone is present at any time that reminds me of those days in which I felt like a harlot for things I did long before I joined the church. I remember once confessing something I had done a year and a half before to someone who was all but a stranger, and why? Because I felt I had to, in order to be worthy.

Bishops are just men who either put an "A" or something lesser on your forehead as they pass you by. If you're lucky, you might get a human being doing this. But most wards are far too large for you to get to know those men. And they go by the handbook more than anything else. It's the handbook that tells them to go after people who leave, not some sense of caring! Please. They don't care about inactives, they're following the book. This isn't some social justice issue, like it is when you're trying to get clean water in a 3rd world country. It's a matter of someone wanting the freedom to choose their own spiritual path, and I'm sorry, but if you care, let the person decide based on their own conscience, not the bishop's handbook.

I once had a councilor who would look at me as if he thought I was going to throw off my clothes and dance the hoochie-coochie at any moment in front of him. He was cordial to all the other young women in my ward, but I always caught him looking at me strangely. It made me feel dirty. I would not want such a judgemental man in my home, and that is what church presidency is to me, judgement. That's what they do, that's what they did to me. The smiles and hellos were fake, and I knew it. They're not like the average pastor, who takes the time each week to pray and write a sermon he thinks will touch his flock. They're not like the average pastor in that they know me. The individual Saints do that in the church, so I'm sorry, if anyone can take on the mantle of clergy, it's them.

The missionaries can be cool kids. It's fun to meet them when they're not "on duty", you learn where they're from, talk about the things you have in common. I once saw two elders, one pushing the other across Route 1 in a Wal-Mart shopping cart (the light was in their favor). I was tickled pink at how inventive they were at having fun. When you see them as people, it's nice.

But then I think about my missionary discussions, and all that was LEFT OUT (like the race issue) that was vital to my happiness as a Latter-day Saint. I experienced a lot of pain over that, and I would not want people in my home who were trained to decieve me and my family. They can do that on church property.

Why does the home need to be invaded by these people? What's wrong with bishop's office, what's wrong with the church foyer or a meeting room? I could see if it was being said, "don't go at all". That would be wrong.

I'm glad that I'm not in the situation, because I'd end up in divorce court. You would not bring those people into my home, after the pain I've had to deal with associated with them. I'd be standing on the front porch with a rifle in hand.

[_harmony]

Your personal definition of clergy is a bit idiosyncric, I think. And if Merc's wife wants to visit with her church leader in her home, that is her right, your personal reaction notwithstanding. If Merc objects, that's something for them to work out. Thus far, I haven't seen any evidence that Merc objects to the bishop visiting her.

[_Sam Harris]

Your personal definition of clergy is a bit idiosyncric, I think. And if Merc's wife wants to visit with her church leader in her home, that is her right, your personal reaction notwithstanding. If Merc objects, that's something for them to work out. Thus far, I haven't seen any evidence that Merc objects to the bishop visiting her.

I think I kept stating "if it were me", which meant that again, if it were me I would not want those individuals in my house.

No, it is not my individual opinion that a person who takes upon themselves the mantle of clergy should be someone who undergoes a great deal of personal study (as in real seminary, not high school) and regular prayer to lead a flock weekly. Not someone who looks good and judges how worthy someone is.

I'm glad the church has blessed you in great ways, Harmony. It blesses many. It shamed me terribly. It shames and angers many. But perhaps your past is much cleaner than mine. I'm finally to the point where I don't have to hang my head about things that happened years ago that really were not all that bad, and I would not appreciate someone near me who brings back those negative feelings.

[_Polygamy Porter]

I didn't realize you were TBM.

Does this mean you won't play Twister with me anymore?

If you're hot and female, you can believe the sun rises in the south and I'll still play Twister with you.

Here is a scary thought: The EQ and Relief Society playing Twister in nothing but garmies.

[_Mercury]

I didn't realize you were TBM.

Does this mean you won't play Twister with me anymore?

If you're hot and female, you can believe the sun rises in the south and I'll still play Twister with you.

Here is a scary thought: The EQ and Relief Society playing Twister in nothing but garmies.

Port, there are things you can't "unthink". Thanks, now I need a Dos Equis to dull the pain.