What to do with past quotes from leaders about cumorah?

[_Jason Bourne]

What's your point. Almost all members of the church accept those quotes, as do I, and reject an LGT theory which would put Cumorah elsewhere.

No general authority has ever supported the LGT theory, at least which would reposition Cumorah, except for perhaps Elder Oaks who is open to the suggestion. But I think this little detail shows the freedom permitted members to discuss and promote different point of views and the Book of Mormon's historical basis.

rcrocket

You do realize that the NY Hill is devoid of any evidence that there was a major civilization there?

Have you ever watched the movie How Rare a Possession? In the beginning it portrays Moroni making a long trek with the plates before he buries them. Looks to me like he started somewhere warm in that dramatization.

So you think FARMS is all wet?

by the way, most members I know believe a LGT and that the Hill was somewhere in Central America.

[_The Nehor]

How many digs have been done around Cumorah? You do realize there was a winning side? Maybe they buried the bodies? Burned them somewhere we haven't found. Of course the quotes could also be wrong. You do realize that Orson Pratt said much more interesting stuff than this, some of it false.

[_Jason Bourne]

You know, that is something that has intrigued me.

I haven't read all of the Book of Mormon, but with having a TBM wife, I have read quite a bit of it.

I always wondered where all the people went?
Surely there must be mass graves somewhere?
What about all the trash?
Kind of gross, but where were their bathrooms located?
What about all the weaponry?
Are there any sort of buildings left behind?
What about fires?

Surely, there must be some sort of physical evidence left from these events?

I mean, we know where things happened in the Middle East, Turkey, etc. because we can find the evidence, from many, many thousand of years ago. We've found evidence of people that lived on this continent from over 10,000 years ago.

We can't even find stuff from less than 2000 years ago in a small part of NY state?

I'm sorry, but that just plain doesn't make sense.

The book 1491 explains that huge amounts of this material were excavated from mounds, but unfortunately almost all of it done by farmers plowing their fields level. Some of it made its way into museums. The book "The History of Tennessee, from its earliest settlemet to the present time," written by a justice in the Tennessee Supreme Court and an amateur archeologist, documents weaponry and iron implements (well, so he claims; he says the evidence is there but it rusted away) removed from mounds in Tennessee, along with evidence of copper or bronze armour. He also documents the finds of coins. The book was written in 1820, and is cited by the Tanners as evidence that Joseph Smith had some source for his theories (there is not evidence it was in a library in New York). The book is available as a reprint on Amazon.

But, the interesting point of this 1820 book is that it explains the state of the science before professionals took over; farmers plowed the mounds and if they found anything interesting, they might try to recover it and sell it.

Today, of the tens of thousands of burial mounds that were once extant, there are only a handful. Driving through the area, I have come across tourist signs to a mound here and there, and the guideposts indicated that the one or two survivors are examples of the tens of thousands which used to exist.

rcrocket

Have you been to NY and New England? Just a view of the landscape and one knows this is hog wash. There is no way farmers could have plowed down all the mounds. Thousands still exist! Most were never farmed as they were to steep to till. And what about buildings and so forth made of cement that he Book of Mormon talks of. No way does NY fit.

[_ozemc]

Did you read the Atlantic article I pointed to? The underlying book documents graves, trash, buildings, meals. I don't remember anything about metals, but the 1820 book I pointed to documented metals.

Yes, I read it. Mostly seems to be a few scholars that claim the North American continent was well-populated. It also appears that many others believe otherwise. To use the word from another thread I read today, there doesn't appear to be any "consensus" on the issue.

I don't see anything regarding upstate NY, however.

Do I have a book about the archeology of the area around the Hill Cumorah? I doubt such a book exists; the area had been plowed and farmed 150 years before Joseph Smith was born. The mound builders buried their dead in the flats. A point Mann makes quite well in his book.

rcrocket

I couldn't find references to their burial practices in that article.

From my talks and readings from the personnel at the Etowah Indian Mounds in N. GA, it seems that most of the time, there was a burial mound in the settlement. In fact, at that site, there were actually a few different mounds that were described as being for the chief (the largest), other higher ranking members of the tribe (smaller mounds surrounding the first), and a burial mound near the chief's where the high priest also lived. That one has been completely excavated at Etowah, so there is a reproduction they built on site to show what it looked like.

The chief actually had a small ramp built on the side of his mound where he could go to a small overlook and preside over burial ceremonies. He looked down on the burial mound from that position.

As to the farming of the area around the Cumorah site, again, I would say that there would be no way for all the evidence to be completely eliminated. There is only so much tilling that can be done by 18th and 19th century tools.

Also, PP brings up a good point: if there actually was evidence at that site to corroborate (sp?) the Book of Mormon story, don't you think the church would be preaching it from the rooftops? It certainly wouldn't be hidden in obscure scholarly articles.

[_rcrocket]

Have you been to NY and New England? Just a view of the landscape and one knows this is hog wash. There is no way farmers could have plowed down all the mounds. Thousands still exist! Most were never farmed as they were to steep to till. And what about buildings and so forth made of cement that he Book of Mormon talks of. No way does NY fit.

Yes, I have been there. Thousands do not exist. In fact, the only mounds I have ever seen are in Ohio.

I don't trust Wiki much, but the Wiki article is interesting on this issue. It points out that the mounds have largely disappeared, and that the culture found in the mounds don't coincide with Native American practices: "The discovery of metal artifacts further convinced people that the mound builders were not Native Americans because the Indians were not known to engage in metallurgy. This was another ignorant perception that was based on the assumption that all Indian cultures are similar."

It also mentions the Kinderhook Plates.

rcrocket

[_Polygamy Porter]

How many digs have been done around Cumorah?

Well, well, well.... look who is baaaaackk

Can't leave it alone can you!

[_The Nehor]

How many digs have been done around Cumorah?

Well, well, well.... look who is baaaaackk

Can't leave it alone can you!

I took a breather, it was good.

Got a girl, had a spiritual reawakening, read a lot, it was nice. I recommend you try it.

[_Polygamy Porter]

How many digs have been done around Cumorah?

Well, well, well.... look who is baaaaackk

Can't leave it alone can you!

I took a breather, it was good.

that's great.

Got a girl, had a spiritual reawakening, read a lot, it was nice. I recommend you try it.

Been there DID that.

Got the girl years ago, had the spiritual reawakening about three years ago, which lead to much reading. Yep, it was nice. A 10% raise and Sundays off!

Is this what you did?

[_The Nehor]

Been there DID that.

Got the girl years ago, had the spiritual reawakening about three years ago, which lead to much reading. Yep, it was nice. A 10% raise and Sundays off!

Is this what you did?

Kinda, God promised me wealth so that makes up for 10%. Girl-getting is proceeding but a little early to tell. Also got another promise from God but I'm not supposed to tell.....(whispers) it's a secret.

[_Polygamy Porter]

Been there DID that.

Got the girl years ago, had the spiritual reawakening about three years ago, which lead to much reading. Yep, it was nice. A 10% raise and Sundays off!

Is this what you did?

Kinda, God promised me wealth so that makes up for 10%. Girl-getting is proceeding but a little early to tell. Also got another promise from God but I'm not supposed to tell.....(whispers) it's a secret.

*booming echoy voice* HAS IT A NAME??