Hello from the FAIR Conference

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_Blixa
_Emeritus
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Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:45 pm

Post by _Blixa »

wenglund wrote:
Blixa wrote:Count me in with those baffled by this questionaire.

Other than a very simplistic calculus between childhood and adulthood (fears and disappointments with parents being transfered in later life onto social and cultural leaders in general---a vulgar Freudianism indeed!), I don't see what kind of insights the questions are supposed to produce.

And then there is the leading nature of so many of the questions themselves....I suspect I have the same response to the questionaire that I allegedly have toward "the church," too.

To take questions seriously and answer them in full---perhaps more completely than intended---well, where would that get me, or us?


The value I found in the questionaire (thanks for providing the correct spelling) is the illuminating of the tie-in between beliefs and personal needs--I.e. one's pursuit of beliefs may, to some degree, be a reflection of one's pursuit of personal needs and desires.

Whether it amounts to "vulgar Freudianism" depends upon what one perceives as the driving needs. If sex and aggression are the driving needs, then "vulgar Freudianism" may be behind it. However, if love and respect are the pursued needs, then Choice Theory may be behind it.

I think this tie-in is important, though, because it says more about us than about the beliefs in question. By understanding better what may be driving our belief-pursuits, it may have a positive affect in changing the beliefs we may pursue and the way we may pursue them. By being made aware of the driving need(s), one then may weigh them in relation to other needs, and evaluate whether it/they should be the driving force or not, thus putting one in a better position to change the driving force and thus the change the nature of the beliefs being driven--I.e. it positions one better to direct one's thinking. For example, if one is driven by the need for certainty, that may invariably inhibit one's pursuit of belief or faith in general. It may give rise to extreme skepticism. When made aware of that driving need, one may then evaluate whether the need for certainty is more critical than other needs ( such as the need for love and respect), and if not, then one may change the driving need, which may then better allow for belief and faith in general, perhaps to their benefit.

But, that may be just how I see it. Other are certainly free to reasonably disagree.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


Wade, I may not have been too clear about "vulgar Freudianism." By that I simply meant the easy equasion of childhood experiences with "authority" and adult experiences of the same. I didn't note, but will now, that my objection is not with the traces of Freud (I hold Freud in fairly high regard, actually) but with the exclusion of other forces of production than the psychological; for example, that there is a politics at work in relations of power which exceeds and transcends the individual and purely "psychological."

That beliefs and needs are deeply entwinned is something I would never argue with, either. However, I think I may understand their relation differently than Ulrich does.

If I have time soon (and I'm not being coy--my husband just had surgery on a hernia and I'm nursing him at home this week. That and some of my own health issues are keeping me from lots I need to be doing on the computer) I will go through the questionaire and write up some answers. That may be the best way to clarify my differences as suggest other ways to make sense of this algebra of belief.

Edit:

I just wrote a draft of my answers to the questionaire. It will take more time to give it a serious response because my "answers" are sincere, detailed and not the ones the questionaire assumes. I'll work on it some more later.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
_truth dancer
_Emeritus
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Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:40 pm

Post by _truth dancer »

Hi Blixa...

I'll be interested in your responses.

As I answered the questions for myself, they do not provide me with anything interesting or insightful.

Maybe reviewing the presentation will help.

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_Lucretia MacEvil
_Emeritus
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Post by _Lucretia MacEvil »

I agree that there is a connection between our beliefs and our needs and desires, so I've made up my own questionnaire:

1. Do you need to be told you are special often?

2. Do you need a set of commandments and rules to obey in order to feel like a moral creature?

3. Do you need to be interviewed, pronounced worthy, and given a little card saying so?

4. Do you worry that you won't be with your family in eternity if you don't go to the temple and make official arrangements?

5. Do you need to be right?

If you've answered any of these questions "yes," Mormonism may be the religion for you!
_truth dancer
_Emeritus
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Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:40 pm

Post by _truth dancer »

Hi Lucretia...

Actually, my first thoughts after reading the questionaire were along these lines.

For some time I have wondered if there is a specific kind of person attracted to Mormonism, or rather beliefs that one holds that mesh with Mormonism.

For example, are those who want to have authority over others, be Kings and Queens, or rule and reign more comfortable with Mormonism? Maybe those who feel weak in some way?

Are those who need a prophet, or who believe there must be authority more comfortable with Mormonism? Maybe this would include authoritarian parents or family structures?

Are those who don't see outside of this moment in history more comfortable with the teachings of Mormonism and Christianity? (They do not have to reconcile science with religion).

Are those who think they would be horrible, sinful people if not for a belief in God more able to believe in God?

Etc. etc. etc.

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_Lucretia MacEvil
_Emeritus
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Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:01 am

Post by _Lucretia MacEvil »

truth dancer wrote:Hi Lucretia...

Actually, my first thoughts after reading the questionaire were along these lines.

For some time I have wondered if there is a specific kind of person attracted to Mormonism, or rather beliefs that one holds that mesh with Mormonism.

For example, are those who want to have authority over others, be Kings and Queens, or rule and reign more comfortable with Mormonism? Maybe those who feel weak in some way?

Are those who need a prophet, or who believe there must be authority more comfortable with Mormonism? Maybe this would include authoritarian parents or family structures?

Are those who don't see outside of this moment in history more comfortable with the teachings of Mormonism and Christianity? (They do not have to reconcile science with religion).

Are those who think they would be horrible, sinful people if not for a belief in God more able to believe in God?

Etc. etc. etc.

~dancer~


Well, yeah, Sis, because we are identical cousins!

Somebody should do a study on it.

Here's the reasons I remember for wanting to be a Mormon:

I'd only been exposed to very strict fundamentalism before, and Mormons were cool because they allowed dancing, movies, make-up.

The Mormons in my little ward were extremely kind to me and gave me approval I didn't feel at home.

Everything I was taught sounded right to me and I believed it all without question. I thought they had the answer to everything. I literally believed the prophet talked to Jesus and leaders had powers of discernment, etc. I was impressed that the Book of Mormon actually mentioned Joseph Smith by name (first name, anyway) and to me that was absolute truth of it all.

I was 14 years old.

Then I just got in the habit of accepting everything, I guess, and took it all in stride as it was added line upon line and precept upon precept until the day came that it just didn't work any more, I didn't know why, I still believed it, just didn't want to be part of it. That took 22 years. Oh, well.
_Blixa
_Emeritus
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Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:45 pm

Post by _Blixa »

truth dancer wrote:Hi Blixa...

I'll be interested in your responses.

As I answered the questions for myself, they do not provide me with anything interesting or insightful.

Maybe reviewing the presentation will help.

~dancer~


well the more work I do on it, the less I feel like posting it. If I really do answer it truthfully I would be revealing a lot (not horrible, heinous stuff, just the stuff of childhood trauma) maybe best left off this board? I would not have thought so until a certain stalker type started his "work" in the Old Testament forum, but now I wonder if I should post personal information of that nature. Seriously, I'm not talking major league crapola, just things I feel sensitive about and don't need some nutjob having a field day with.

I may try to write a slightly less revealing version...or I may junk the whole idea...or I may post it and let the chips fall where they may. Haven't decided.

Either way, it won't fit the Ulrich format and I don't know what it will reveal that isn't rather obvious about me and my disaffection from Mormonism already. But maybe that will be useful?

Still thinking it over.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
_truth dancer
_Emeritus
Posts: 4792
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:40 pm

Post by _truth dancer »

Hi Lu...

The reason I wanted to join the church?

The missionaries told me the church was the only true one, and Jesus spoke to the prophet.

I believed them.

I was eight.

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_truth dancer
_Emeritus
Posts: 4792
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:40 pm

Post by _truth dancer »

Hi Blixa...

Either way, it won't fit the Ulrich format and I don't know what it will reveal that isn't rather obvious about me and my disaffection from Mormonism already. But maybe that will be useful?

Still thinking it over.


Ohhh yeah best be careful!

Maybe without disclosing information you could just share your thoughts why the questionaire was or was not helpful to you? Or why your responses do not fit the Ulrich format?

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_Roger Morrison
_Emeritus
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Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:13 am

Post by _Roger Morrison »

Welcome to the group, Doc! I'd like a 1 on 1 with Wendy to get a fix on what she's about... Cuz it 's sure not clear to me... Warm regards, Roger
_wenglund
_Emeritus
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Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:25 pm

Post by _wenglund »

Lucretia MacEvil wrote:I agree that there is a connection between our beliefs and our needs and desires, so I've made up my own questionnaire:

1. Do you need to be told you are special often?

2. Do you need a set of commandments and rules to obey in order to feel like a moral creature?

3. Do you need to be interviewed, pronounced worthy, and given a little card saying so?

4. Do you worry that you won't be with your family in eternity if you don't go to the temple and make official arrangements?

5. Do you need to be right?

If you've answered any of these questions "yes," Mormonism may be the religion for you!


With the exception of LDS-specific portions of some of your questions (such as "little cards", "family in eternity", and "temple"), a "yes" answer to your questions may lend itself to belief in a broad range of faith traditions--including anti-Mormonism. ;-)

It also may work in regards to secular organizations or institutions--for example, answering "yes" to the generic portions of your questions may mean that the public school system is a good place for you.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
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