Calling Daniel Peterson

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_beastie
_Emeritus
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Post by _beastie »

If you're going to quote Michael Coe, you ought not to omit things like his statement that the Book of Mormon is "so racist it hurts", as well as recommending to his Mormon colleagues that they quit wasting their time trying to find evidence of the Book of Mormon in Mesoamerica because it's not there.

You mean like calling others "serpents"? And "a generation of vipers"? Or "dogs"? Or "that fox"? I suppose the New Age Jesus, or SNAG Jesus, appeals to you more.


Why in the world you would imagine I have fondness for the New Age Jesus, I have no idea. I guess it's just frustrating to talk to an atheist for whom this tactic doesn't work.

I don't. But I understand your deep need to rescue the world from "delusion". You are 100% sure the Book of Mormon is entirely fiction, and you won't rest until you save the world.


I am 100% certain the Book of Mormon is fiction. But your attempts to psychoanalyze me fall short. If what I do is all that is necessary for you to declare someone is trying to "save the world", then you have very low expectations and/or standards. But I suspect you're just engaging in your usual hyperbole.

Paul:

Apology accepted. I know Daniel is dog-piled on here, so I don't blame him for not participating, but I do wish he would at least answer this simple question.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

beastie wrote:If you're going to quote Michael Coe, you ought not to omit things like his statement that the Book of Mormon is "so racist it hurts",


Of course it's racist. People in the 19th century were racist. People in ancient Israel were racist. People in ancient Egypt were racist. Do you expect the Book of Mormon peoples to be Dr. Martin Luther Jnr? Does Coe?

beastie wrote:as well as recommending to his Mormon colleagues that they quit wasting their time trying to find evidence of the Book of Mormon in Mesoamerica because it's not there.


Well maybe you should take his advice and not try to convince everyone what is already "so obvious". Just quote Coe. Matter concluded. Lots more time to look into Mesoamerica without an anti-Book of Mormon agenda. Why not try writing a book on Mesoamerica without mentioning the Book of Mormon, as Coe has done. I bet you couldn't, because you can't resist chipping away at the Book of Mormon, or playing prosecutor and cross-examiner of people like DCP.

(Back to packing.)
_beastie
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Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Post by _beastie »

Of course it's racist. People in the 19th century were racist. People in ancient Israel were racist. People in ancient Egypt were racist. Do you expect the Book of Mormon peoples to be Dr. Martin Luther Jnr? Does Coe?


The point is that the Book of Mormon perfectly reflects the racist sentiments of the nineteenth century. The author of the Book of Mormon was not the only person in that time period who was convinced that some, long gone, white race had built the incredible ruins being found, because it was inconceivable to them that ancestors of the native americans could possibly have performed such a feat. Most of these individuals were also convinced that this ancient race were from the house of Israel.

Well maybe you should take his advice and not try to convince everyone what is already "so obvious". Just quote Coe. Matter concluded. Lots more time to look into Mesoamerica without an anti-Book of Mormon agenda. Why not try writing a book on Mesoamerica without mentioning the Book of Mormon, as Coe has done. I bet you couldn't, because you can't resist chipping away at the Book of Mormon, or playing prosecutor and cross-examiner of people like DCP.


This is a minor diversion, Ray, it hardly makes a dent in my life. And I'm certainly not trying to convince "everyone". I have no interest in convincing you, DCP, or any other MADdite. I interact on these issues for lurkers sincerely looking for additional information.

by the way, I think you have misinterpreted Coe's comments here:

When I was a kid I don't think I knew anything about the Mormons, except of course stories about polygamy and things of that sort. But when I was at Harvard as an undergraduate and got into anthropology for the first time, I took a course on comparative religion. It was great. It was given by a wonderful professor, Evan Bowen. One of his colleagues and former students was a man named Tom O'Dea. He invited him in to give a guest lecture on the Mormons and Mormonism, on the theology of Mormonism.

I was astonished by it. This was a world I knew nothing about. I was really fascinated with the whole idea about how these people believe, for instance, that eventually every man and woman is going to go to heaven and become a God and Mrs. God; I never heard of this. This was a different side of things. That initially got me into this whole field. ... So I was hooked really even before I began to go into the field as an archaeologist and met real Mormon archaeologists.


http://www.pbs.org/Mormons/interviews/coe.html

Coe is not saying that he became interested in mesoamerica due to the Book of Mormon. He is saying he was already interested in Mormonism before he went into archaeology and met Mormon archaeologists, which piqued his interest even more.

Here some other quotes from the same interview:

I really think that Joseph Smith, like shamans everywhere, started out faking it. I have to believe this -- that he didn't believe this at all, that he was out to impress, but he got caught up in the mythology that he created. This is what happens to shamans: They begin to believe they can do these things. It becomes a revelation: They're speaking to God. And I don't think they start out that way; I really do not. ...

It's as though P.T. Barnum had started to believe his own fakeries. In many respects he was a great man, [and] he could have done something of the same thing, but he didn't. He didn't have this kind of inner spirit and this sense of destiny that Joseph Smith had. Joseph Smith had a sense of destiny -- and most fakers don't have this -- and this is how he transformed something that, I think, was clearly made up into something that was absolutely convincing, convincing to him and to a lot of people, and he never could have convinced a lot of people if he hadn't been convinced himself.


And this one:

To make Book of Mormon archaeology at all kind of believable, my friend John Sorenson has gone this route: He has compared, in a general way, the civilizations of Mexico and Mesoamerica with the civilizations of the western part of the Old World, and he has made a study of how diffusion happens, really very good diffusion studies. He's tried to build a reasonable picture that these two civilizations weren't all that different from each other. Well, this is true of all civilizations, actually; there's nothing new under the sun.

So he has built up what he hopes is a convincing background in which you can put Book of Mormon archaeology, and he's a very serious, bright guy. But I'm sorry to say that I don't really buy more than a part of this. I don't really think you can argue, no matter how bright you are, that what's said in the Book of Mormon applies to the peoples that we study in Mexico and Central America. That's one way of doing it -- to build up a kind of convincing background, a kind of stage set to this -- but there's no actors. That's the problem. ...


What he is saying is that Sorenson - and every other Book of Mormon apologist I know of - tries to make a case with drawing the sort of comparisons that really could be drawn between almost any two civilizations.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

beastie wrote:
This is a minor diversion, Ray, it hardly makes a dent in my life. And I'm certainly not trying to convince "everyone". I have no interest in convincing you, DCP, or any other MADdite. I interact on these issues for lurkers sincerely looking for additional information.

by the way, I think you have misinterpreted Coe's comments here:

When I was a kid I don't think I knew anything about the Mormons, except of course stories about polygamy and things of that sort. But when I was at Harvard as an undergraduate and got into anthropology for the first time, I took a course on comparative religion. It was great. It was given by a wonderful professor, Evan Bowen. One of his colleagues and former students was a man named Tom O'Dea. He invited him in to give a guest lecture on the Mormons and Mormonism, on the theology of Mormonism.

I was astonished by it. This was a world I knew nothing about. I was really fascinated with the whole idea about how these people believe, for instance, that eventually every man and woman is going to go to heaven and become a God and Mrs. God; I never heard of this. This was a different side of things. That initially got me into this whole field. ... So I was hooked really even before I began to go into the field as an archaeologist and met real Mormon archaeologists.




You sure you reading that correctly? See the portion I have bolded.
_Lucretia MacEvil
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Post by _Lucretia MacEvil »

Paul Osborne wrote:
It just seems Dan has been awufully busy lately having to defend his position ......

Paul O



And perhaps that says mountains about his positions.


Chris <><


teeheehee
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Ray, you said:

And you would not have cared any less about Mesoamerica had you not become a Mormon. The Book of Mormon drove Michael Coe to archaeology, so it can't be all that bad. His opinion of it is also much higher than yours. In his PBS interview he said:


This leads people to conclude that Coe read the Book of Mormon, and something about it drove him to study archaeology. That is not what he said. He said:

When I was a kid I don't think I knew anything about the Mormons, except of course stories about polygamy and things of that sort. But when I was at Harvard as an undergraduate and got into anthropology for the first time, I took a course on comparative religion. It was great. It was given by a wonderful professor, Evan Bowen. One of his colleagues and former students was a man named Tom O'Dea. He invited him in to give a guest lecture on the Mormons and Mormonism, on the theology of Mormonism.

I was astonished by it. This was a world I knew nothing about. I was really fascinated with the whole idea about how these people believe, for instance, that eventually every man and woman is going to go to heaven and become a God and Mrs. God; I never heard of this. This was a different side of things. That initially got me into this whole field. ... So I was hooked really even before I began to go into the field as an archaeologist and met real Mormon archaeologists.


This says nothing about the Book of Mormon. In fact, the Book of Mormon has very little to do with the "theology of Mormonism". He is saying that learning about an entirely different culture, an astonishing culture that taught the "Mr. and Mrs. God" idea (not found in the Book of Mormon) interested him in studying anthropology and archaeology.

Your statement seems to imply that he read the Book of Mormon and found something in it that drove him to study archaeology, which is not what he said. It was learning about a culture so different it was almost alien (astonishing) that drove him to learn about other cultures.

It may be a minor distinction to you, but in a conversation regarding the feasibility of the historicity of the Book of Mormon, I think it's an important one.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Phaedrus Ut
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Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:55 pm

Post by _Phaedrus Ut »

I'm going to bump this up because I'm also interested in anything new on the subject.



Phaedrus
_beastie
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Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Post by _beastie »

I will continue bumping this up in the hopes of a response. I'd really like to know what latest research supports the existence of the horse in the Book of Mormon time frame.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Post by _beastie »

bumping up again for Dr. Peterson, who is visiting us again.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_silentkid
_Emeritus
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Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 5:50 pm

Post by _silentkid »

I'm also bumping this because I watched Apocalypto last night and none of the Mayans rode any horses. They did kill a tapir, though. ;)
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