so, what happened today in Sacrament meeting?

[_wenglund]

So today we had a bunch of young 6 year olds (or thereabouts) get up and bear their testimonkeys, followed by some teenagers. And then a woman got up and, I kid you not, told us how God helped her find her car keys. I am not joking. They'd been missing for a whole week and she was starting to despair, and not ten minutes after she finally knelt and prayed to God to help her find the keys, the Holy Ghost lead her to look under a particular couch cushion, and there they were. Thank God. We had a few boring travelogs, and then it was over, and I went home*.

I just had to chuckle inside at the "God helped me find my keys" testimony.

After sacrament, while people were getting up to go to their next class, I remarked to my 14-year old daughter that isn't it interesting that there are kids in Africa starving, dieing of AIDS, and getting their limbs hacked off with machetes, and God doesn't seem to do anything to help them, but God sure is interested in helping us overweight, middle-class, American white folks find our keys. Halleluja! My daughter knows I think this way, and I think she actually gets it. Good for her. I can only hope, as she enters adulthood, that she does so with rational and critical thinking faculties intact. If that happens, my mission will have been accomplished.

Apparently, some parents see their mission is to teach their children to be cynical, distrusting, and unbelieving, while other parents see their mission is to teach their child to be just the opposite (loving, trusting, and believing).

If both sets of parents are successful in their mission, which of their children do you suppose will be most likely to succeed in life as well as be instrumental in diminishing many of life's disparities (enabling the starving Africans to attain food, the sick to heal, and help the war and violence-ridden communities to find peace)? Which of the children will be best suited to uplift and improve themselves as well as help others do the same? Which of the children may best be able to find comfort and solace for themselves and give the same to others following a broad range of sorrows and tribulations?

Just something to think about.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Yoda]

Much of the attitude I see in Chapels or testimony meeting indirectly comes from the belief that each of us are placed in our conditions based on our faithfulness to the law before we came. The teachings on the pre existence tell LDS that Africans are suffering because they were not good in heaven and LDS are so blessed because they are God's chosen/elect. That attitude makes me sick and I hear it all the time when I discuss the incomparable suffering of our brothers and sisters that were born in horrific circumstances.

I've been a member of the Church for 43 years, and was NEVER taught this in any type of official setting.

I agree. The idea is sickening.

I have read Brigham Young's wacky theory regarding this in the JoD, but I have never heard this principle taught in any type of Sunday School, Institute, or BYU Religion course. The JoD is not considered LDS canon, thank God! For good reason!

[_The Nehor]

I just wonder then, what is the point of God? What does He do?

I expect God to do nothing for me. Or anyone else.

***edited to add***
The longer I post here the more heretical I become.

Save us from ourselves if we want out of this world.

[_Who Knows]

Apparently, some parents see their mission is to teach their children to be cynical, distrusting, and unbelieving, while other parents see their mission is to teach their child to be just the opposite (loving, trusting, and believing).

Heh. I could likewise say this:

Some parents see their mission is to teach their children to be skeptical, and questioning, while other parents see their mission is to teach their child to be just the opposite - gullible.

Which do you think is most likely to succeed in life?

you see cynicism, i see justified skepticism. you see distrust, i see not taking important items at face value (without supporting evidence). And given the history of the church, and the experiences of myself, family and friends, I think the former is completely justified.

[_barrelomonkeys]

I just wonder then, what is the point of God? What does He do?

I expect God to do nothing for me. Or anyone else.

***edited to add***
The longer I post here the more heretical I become.

Save us from ourselves if we want out of this world.

What do you mean by that? You mean in the afterlife?

[_Seven]

[

quote="Ray A"]

Ray, this thread wasn't started to discuss whether or not it's hypocritical not to sell all our stuff and move to Africa with Albert Schweizer. It's about how ridiculous it is for white, middle-class Americans to imagine that some God up in heaven, who created this universe of billions of billions of stars and solar systems, and planets, and whatnot, prompted them to find their car keys, and meanwhile the "weightier matters" are left undone by God, like preventing the tsunami that killed hundreds of thousands of people. When you think about it, that's just nuts.

Obviously you didn't get my point, which is relevant to your OP. It was about finding "car keys", and why should "the God of the Universe" be concerned about this. Why shouldn't he? Do you discriminate in how you treat your children by how much money they have? Or where they live? If one child has a tootache, and another debt problems, do you say to hell with one, and not the other? Let's say one of your sons has the talent of Babe Ruth. Would you treat him differently than you do the one who doesn't? Good parents are not known to be partisan. Should God? Should God say: "You are rich, therefore you need no more blessings"?

You would have a point if God was also answering the prayers of the millions with grave needs but He only seems to be helping His chosen people get bigger homes, better jobs, and finding their car keys.

[_The Nehor]

I agree with many of your comments. God isn't supposed to interfere with another's agency. I believe it is up to each of us to change the world and the suffering we see. When it comes to my needs here in America, I just can't accept that He would bless me with finding my car keys while He ignores the millions of pleas and prayers to Him of those suffering at the hands of the most wicked actions on earth. My needs are very superficial in comparison. I don't want Him to help me if He won't help the child starving and orphaned because their parents were massacred.

So why do LDS believe that he intervenes for them? My MIL fell asleep at the wheel when my DH was a baby and flipped her car over a few times with all the kids inside. There were some minor injuries but no fatalities. She believes God intervened to save them because they had missions to fulfill as Mormons/God's chosen. I have a really hard time believing God protected them from her poor choice of driving tired while he allows consequences of other peoples choices to play out all over the rest of the world. We see people make the same poor choices all the time and some get off lucky.
How can they attribute their luck to God without feeling they are more special than another? My TBM friends & family tell story after story of how God answered their prayers for a bigger house, moving, warning them of danger, getting a new job, having another baby, etc.

Much of the attitude I see in Chapels or testimony meeting indirectly comes from the belief that each of us are placed in our conditions based on our faithfulness to the law before we came. The teachings on the pre existence tell LDS that Africans are suffering because they were not good in heaven and LDS are so blessed because they are God's chosen/elect. That attitude makes me sick and I hear it all the time when I discuss the incomparable suffering of our brothers and sisters that were born in horrific circumstances.

The teachings on the Premortal world being taught DO NOT teach that. At most it teaches that people are born where they can do the most good based on who and what they are. This is no sure thing though either since based on the state of the world I would hazard a guess that a good percentage of the people on Earth aren't doing what they were assigned to do.

Your MIL's gratitude is justified but it should not make her feel special. There are either two possibilities. Either God intervened to save her or the Universe was built in such a way that it allowed her to be safe. God gets some credit either way.

I am lucky...amazingly lucky. I attribute it to God's love for me. Am I special....no more than anyone else. Now saying that and convincing myself are of course two different things :)

[_Yoda]

Apparently, some parents see their mission is to teach their children to be cynical, distrusting, and unbelieving, while other parents see their mission is to teach their child to be just the opposite (loving, trusting, and believing).

If both sets of parents are successful in their mission, which of their children do you suppose will be most likely to succeed in life as well as be instrumental in diminishing many of life's disparities (enabling the starving Africans to attain food, the sick to heal, and help the war and violence-ridden communities to find peace)? Which of the children will be best suited to uplift and improve themselves as well as help others do the same? Which of the children may best be able to find comfort and solace for themselves and give the same to others following a broad range of sorrows and tribulations?

Just something to think about.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I agree with your idealism. Your argument here would actually fit in well on PP's thread, "Does the Teaching in LDS Primary equal Brainwashing?"

Here is the link:

http://www.mormondiscussions.com/discus ... php?t=2615

But Wade, do you think it's wise for parents to bring children up to the stand and have them parrot a testimony on a regular basis, or do you think it's better for them to develop it on their own? Also, as I mentioned to Kevin earlier, I believe that the Church actually came out with some official statements against this practice. In my Ward, it's more the exception than the rule.

Do you happen to remember, by chance, when that directive was made?

[_Seven]

Much of the attitude I see in Chapels or testimony meeting indirectly comes from the belief that each of us are placed in our conditions based on our faithfulness to the law before we came. The teachings on the pre existence tell LDS that Africans are suffering because they were not good in heaven and LDS are so blessed because they are God's chosen/elect. That attitude makes me sick and I hear it all the time when I discuss the incomparable suffering of our brothers and sisters that were born in horrific circumstances.

I've been a member of the Church for 43 years, and was NEVER taught this in any type of official setting.

I agree. The idea is sickening.

I have read Brigham Young's wacky theory regarding this in the JoD, but I have never heard this principle taught in any type of Sunday School, Institute, or BYU Religion course. The JoD is not considered LDS canon, thank God! For good reason!

If I recall correctly, I first remember reading it in Mormon Doctrine by Mckonkie as a teenager.
I don't know if this has been taught recently but the attitude is still there. Discuss this topic with your Relief Society or Sunday School and see what they come up with. I brought this up with several LDS women and family. Almost every one of them believes we are in America and so blessed because of the pre existence. Here are some teachings on this I posted in another thread.

[

b]There is a reason why one man is BORN BLACK and with OTHER DISADVANTAGES, while another is BORN WHITE with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient; more or less, to the laws that were given us there.” [/b](Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, page 61)


and this... http://www.xmission.com/~country/chngwrld/chap10.htm


Quote:
From this doctrine of the pre-existence of the soul, came the idea of some spirits being more noble than others. Joseph Smith's Book of Abraham talks of "the noble and great ones" (Pearl of Great Price, Book of Abraham 3:22). The Mormon leaders taught that the "more noble" or choice spirits are born as Mormons. Blacks, on the other hand, were considered to have been more unfaithful in the pre-existence than any of the spirits who were allowed to take bodies. Apostle McConkie maintained that "those who were less valiant in pre-existence and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions imposed upon them during mortality are known to us as the Negroes. Such spirits are sent to earth through the lineage of Cain, the mark put upon him for his rebellion against God and his murder of Abel being a black skin (Mormon Doctrine, pp.476-77).

Mormon historian B. H. Roberts asserted that in the pre-existence the Negroes "through their indifference or lack of integrity to righteousness, rendered themselves unworthy of the Priesthood and its powers, and hence it is withheld from them to this day (The Contributor, vol. 6, pp.296-97).

Apostle Mark E. Petersen presented the Mormon thinking concerning the doctrine of pre-existence:


Is there reason then why the type of birth we receive in this life is not a reflection of our worthiness or lack of it in the preexistent life? . . . can we account in any other way for the birth of some of the children of God in darkest Africa, or in flood-ridden China, or among the starving hordes of India, while some of the rest of us are born here in the United States? We cannot escape the conclusion that because of performance in our pre-existence some of us are born as Chinese, some as Japanese, some as

<Page 294>

Latter-day Saints. These are rewards and punishments, fully in harmony with His established policy in dealing with sinners and saints, rewarding all according to their deeds. . . .
Let us consider the great mercy of God for a moment. A Chinese, born in China with a dark skin, and with all the handicaps of that race seems to have littie opportunity. But think of the mercy of God to Chinese people who are willing to accept the gospel. In spite of whatever they might have done in the pre-existence to justify being born over there as Chinamen, if they now, in this life, accept the gospel and live it the rest of their lives they can have the Priesthood, go to the temple and receive endowments and sealings, and that means they can have exaltation. Isn't the mercy of God marvelous?

Think of the Negro, cursed as to the priesthood. . . . This Negro, who, in the pre-existence lived the type of life which justified the Lord in sending him to the earth in the lineage of Cain with a black skin, and possibly being born in darkest Africa--if that Negro is willing when he hears the gospel to accept it, he may have many of the blessings of the gospel. In spite of all he did in the pre-existent life, the Lord is willing, if the Negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. If that Negro is faithful all his days, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get celestial glory (Race Problems--As They Affect The Church, Address by Mark E. Petersen at the Convention of Teachers of Religion on the College Level, delivered at Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah, August 27, 1954).

[_Seven]

Nehor:
The teachings on the Premortal world being taught DO NOT teach that.

Even Joseph Smith taught it. I posted a few statements on the pre existence in a response to Liz that you should read.