Impotence or Omnipotence. A Question about the Mormon God

[_asbestosman]

And I haven't entirely lost belief in God, yet, though for the life of me I can't figure out why not.


KA

That sounds like me. Something inside of me refuses to believe that God isn't out there. But maybe it's just that I want Him to be.

Both KA and Steuss mentioned that they hold hope that an afterlife will exist to right the wrongs which exist in this one.

Yet I suppose that an afterlife can exist without God and visa-versa.

[_Doctor Steuss]

Yet I suppose that an afterlife can exist without God and visa-versa.

I have now read this 7 times... nope, make that 8, and it still has me going:


Hmmmmmmm...

[_Runtu]

And I haven't entirely lost belief in God, yet, though for the life of me I can't figure out why not.


KA

That sounds like me. Something inside of me refuses to believe that God isn't out there. But maybe it's just that I want Him to be.

Both KA and Steuss mentioned that they hold hope that an afterlife will exist to right the wrongs which exist in this one.

Yet I suppose that an afterlife can exist without God and visa-versa.

And the converse could be true, too: a God exists but there is no afterlife.

I don't know why I want to believe in God. I just do.

[_asbestosman]

I don't know why I want to believe in God. I just do.

I don't know either. It could be that He exists. It could be indoctrinization. It could be that one hopes that the afterlife would have someone in charge lest that world come to the chaos we find in this one. Maybe it's a hope that we're not alone in the universe and that we somehow belong.

Now I'm genuniely curious about your reasons for wanting to believe in God. Do you suppose there's any way could figure it out?

[_wenglund]

Lately, mention has been made on this board of the travesties in Africa and Darfur. Now, those of us living in relative luxury may rightly be pained to learn of the starvation and deprevation in those places, and some may even view these things as cause to doubt the existence of God. I find it interesting, though, to learn that some of the impoverished and beleagered Africans have come to a belief in God (not a few becoming LDS), and who have found their belief in Him to be a welcomed source of comfort and strength, and a means for raising themselves above those conditions in various ways and on various levels.

Isn't it fascinating how the same events and circumstance can cause a loss of faith in some people and a gaining or increase in faith in other people--particularly those most directly involved in the events and circumstances?

Why do you suppose that is?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I find that fascinating as well. I suppose it may be the case that in troubled times, as some seek comfort, some may indeed find great comfort and assurance in God.

I wish I knew why some lose faith and others are fortified in their faith when it comes to tragedy. I understand on a very surface level why some people are strengthened by sorrows and yet I wish I could understand why I am not.

If someone could suggest some reading I'm up for it.

Wade, I did quote you but please don't deem it necessary to respond to me.

If it is of any solace, I am not responding to you because I feel it necessary, but because I wish to be respectfully involved in moving those interested (including myself) towards greater understanding on this question.

Since I tend to have the opposite faith-reaction to certain tragedies than you, perhaps I can describe some of my own relevant thought-processes, and see whether or how they differ from your's, and perhaps thereby illuminate both our understandings.

First and foremost, I try not to view tragedies as defining the people involved. For example, when I think of Africans who are starving and deprived, I try to view them as more than just that. I consciously attempt to make myself aware of other significant aspects of the Africans' lives. While I may see the swollen bellies and the looks of hunger and flies swarming around the faces of the African children, I also note how they are embraced by loving parents, and how they may dance with excitement at the visit of a stranger, and the joyful way they still are able to play like other children around the world, as well as the magestic beauty of nature that surrounds them and the simple pragmatism of their somewhat enviable minimilistic lives. I see good, hardworking, and decent people. I see their amazing skills and heroic capacity to survive, their oft amiable and inspiring perserverance in the face of formitable challenges. etc. In other words, I look at more than what may be wrong with the situation (the tragedy, itself), and am able to see much that is right. I do this not to diminish the significance of the tragedy, but rather to put the tragedy into what I see as proper and balanced perspective.

What about you?

Can you see how viewing tragedies this way may give place for belief in God--i.e. perhaps enabling us to see Him in all that may be right about the situation, if not in the tragedies themselves?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_barrelomonkeys]

Since I tend to have the opposite faith-reaction to certain tragedies than you, perhaps I can describe some of my own relevant thought-processes, and see whether or how they differ from your's, and perhaps thereby illuminate both our understandings.

First and foremost, I try not to view tragedies as defining the people involved. For example, when I think of Africans who are starving and deprived, I try to view them as more than just that. I consciously attempt to make myself aware of other significant aspects of the Africans' lives. While I may see the swollen bellies and the looks of hunger and flies swarming around the faces of the African children, I also note how they are embraced by loving parents, and how they may dance with excitement at the visit of a stranger, and the joyful way they still are able to play like other children around the world, as well as the magestic beauty of nature that surrounds them and the simple pragmatism of their somewhat enviable minimilistic lives. I see good, hardworking, and decent people. I see their amazing skills and heroic capacity to survive, their oft amiable and inspiring perserverance in the face of formitable challenges. etc. In other words, I look at more than what may be wrong with the situation (the tragedy, itself), and am able to see much that is right. I do this not to diminish the significance of the tragedy, but rather to put the tragedy into what I see as proper and balanced perspective.

What about you?

Can you see how viewing tragedies this way may give place for belief in God--I.e. perhaps enabling us to see Him in all that may be right about the situation, if not in the tragedies themselves?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Wade, when I speak of tragedy and losing faith I speak of my own pain while I called out for God to bring me comfort and relief. I did not lose my belief in God when I viewed the suffering of others, I lost my belief that God loved me or was present in this world (if indeed He ever was) when I myself felt deserted and without Him. This was after knowing He was a constant and present part of my life.

I understand what you say about how I may view suffering around the world. No doubt there is much joy and beauty still in many lives where I may not recognize it as such. I really am struck by your thought that I completely overlook the beauty of humanity that rises out of the horrors of the world. No doubt that is absolutely something I do. Often.

The suffering of others now only compounds my sense that perhaps God is not with any of us. I am rather infuriated (just a momentary emotional outburst at a stranger over a bulletin board) by the idea that Nehor finds his car keys and I was ignored when I was a child. Do I accept that God finds the retrieval of car keys more important than I was? Do I accept that God does not intercede? Do I accept that God wanted me to suffer? Do I accept that God has a plan for me that I don't yet know, or may never know? I don't know these answers. All I know is that when I hear of small blessings I become infuriated that those in need (in the way I deem important) are seemingly ignored. I do not believe God helps Nehor find his car keys. I do not believe God helps kittens find their way home. I sometimes believe God is still with me and wants me to know Him. I want to know why I had such difficulty believing He is my Father when others suffer and come away with the assurance that He does indeed love them. That is my question.

I want to know how others in pain can come away with the knowledge that God loves them and is still present in their lives. I want to know why some of us lose God when we suffer when others walk away in His light.

[_wenglund]

Not only did you get exactly backwards what I have said (as previously demonstrated), but you now compound that nonsense by falsely assuming that I was somehow placing conditions on faith, and that I was taking a swipe at KA's faith journey. In truth, I was mearly ASKING KA whether her sister's faith journey was the same as KA's, or more like mine. No conditions were placed on anyone by that QUESTION. No swipe is being made by that QUESTION.

Wade,

While I don't think you intended the things of which you are accused, I think the only appropriate thing to do with questions about the Problem of Evils is to simply admit that suffering is indeed difficult. The emotions on such a thing run high which makes further discorse more harmful than helpful. While I also find it remarkable that many people find god through great trials, I think that discussion of such only serves to further hurt those who are deeply hurt about suffering. Many do all they can to alleviate that suffering and yet their efforts are not sufficient to solve it. Naturally they would wonder why those who have more power than they do (assuming they exist) would not and indeed hold them in contempt.

Showing that many who suffer are yet able to come to faith despite the Problem of Evil does not ease the burdens of those who genuinely hurt because of it. Indeed, it can understandably be seen as arrogant.

. . . says the guy who has a really hard time reading others' emotions and communicating effectively.

I respectfully disagree. While I think it beneficial as well as appropriate to acknowledge that suffering is indeed difficult, I think that further discussion (if it is handled right on either side) can serve to calm emotions and may even serve to increase understanding if not also ease pain and suffering.

To clarify (lest there be any misunderstanding), my intent is not simply to ease the burden of hurt by merely showing that people are able to come to faith despite the Problem of Evil. Rather, my intent is not only to counter the notion that loss of faith is a necessary consiquence when reasonably considering the Problem of Evil, but also to show that the manner in which one may retain and increase in faith when reasonably considering the Problem of Evil may not only ease the burden of their hurt due to the Problem, but also position them to more functionally handle tragedies in general (both in terms of how they may choose to let the tragedies affect them, but also in terms of how the go about attempting to rectify the tragedies where and to the degree possible). In other words, in the process of arguing against what I view as a false notion, I will also hope to illuminat valuable adaptive and survival skills. I certainly do see that as a bad thing. ;-)

On the other hand, those who may reasonably chose to disbelieve and continue in their suffering from the pain of the Problem of Evil, are not denied that freedom by me or anything I may say. I am merely proffering a viable alternative.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_mocnarf]

God is such a great concept that man has come up with. You can dump your shame, guilt and/or sins on Him and then go on your marry way. Of coarse, each of man's various religions define how this is done a little different from each other. This allows Joseph Smith to blame his ppolygamist relationships by saying he was doing Gods will (and if he didn't didn't do it God was going to have him killed). Then Lee and his Cedar City neighbors were able to kill men, women and children justified by their priesthood authority given to them by God and in so doing they were protecting the one and only true church. Then, how could we forget the God fearing Priest, Bishops, Cardinal and Popes that kill unbelievers so that Gods will could move foreward. And in our modern day, the believers of the one and only true God, who strap bombs with timers on their children and have them wonder amonst the people of a market place. And then when they hear the sound of thunder they rejoice how wonderful and great their God is.

Yes, this concept of God created by man, is a wonderful thing, it free's men of guilt and responsiblity. How would mankind ever get along without it?

[_The Nehor]

God is such a great concept that man has come up with. You can dump your shame, guilt and/or sins on Him and then go on your marry way. Of coarse, each of man's various religions define how this is done a little different from each other. This allows Joseph Smith to blame his ppolygamist relationships by saying he was doing Gods will (and if he didn't didn't do it God was going to have him killed). Then Lee and his Cedar City neighbors were able to kill men, women and children justified by their priesthood authority given to them by God and in so doing they were protecting the one and only true church. Then, how could we forget the God fearing Priest, Bishops, Cardinal and Popes that kill unbelievers so that Gods will could move foreward. And in our modern day, the believers of the one and only true God, who strap bombs with timers on their children and have them wonder amonst the people of a market place. And then when they hear the sound of thunder they rejoice how wonderful and great their God is.

Yes, this concept of God created by man, is a wonderful thing, it free's men of guilt and responsiblity. How would mankind ever get along without it?

Beautiful caricature.

It doesn't work that way. The people most concerned with their conduct, most dedicated to their responsibilities to the world are the ones who also believe in God. I can honestly say that in my experience they are much, much better at it than atheists. I could overload you with studies saying religious people have a lower incidence of spousal infidelity, a higher rate of financially and physically supporting their children, lower instances of criminal behavior, etc, etc.

But why?

[_ajax18]

My parents have the power and ability to wipe my a**, yet for some reason they decided at one point that I needed to wipe my own a**.

So much for the power of parents.


"It is one of the most beautiful compensations of life, that no man can sincerely try to help another without helping himself." -Ralph Waldo Emerson

(I don't think G-d has asked us to help Him out for His benefit... I think it is for our own.)

It's clear in the Bible and the Book of Mormon that God is omniscient. I was taught my whole life that God knew the end from the beginning and everything in between.

My question is, then, if God knows we're going to fail at so many things, why does he not care to intervene where He knows people need Him? God knows those babies in Darfur need help, he knows they're not going to get it, he knows they're going to be hacked to pieces, but he does NOTHING! NOTHING!!?? What use is God if he does nothing to prevent human tragedy when he has all the power necessary to do so? Because we humans can't get to those babies in Darfur fast enough then that's just their tough luck, I guess. God is going to sit on his hands and watch people get raped, tortured, and murdered, see them starve and hear them plead with him for food and drink, but he has the nerve to decline to assist them when it would be so easy for him to save them, feed them, heal them...

Where is God? What use is He anyway if He has the power to help but refuses?

And I swear, if Nehor or anyone else pops onto this thread spouting that crap about death being no big deal and just a step on to another life, then I'm going to go off on them, Goddammit! It's not them being hacked to pieces in Darfur, is it? Maybe being brutally chopped up by a machete is no big deal to them and their powerless God because they're not the ones feeling the knife's blade.

KA

And without God at all, how do we deal with such tragedy and misfortune? Suffering is always more painful and difficult when one cannot see any meaning in it.