How do you know it's the Holy Ghost?

[_Blixa]

Its the prologue to William Blake's The Proverbs of Hell. If I considered anything scripture, it would probably be that.

[_Tarski]

Per Kimberly Ann’s request, and because my heart is still twitterpated at the recollection of her in slinky black dress, I am posting my reply from the other thread, along with the reply I made to Ryan’s subsequent questions:

I confess that I used to be kind of a Star Trek devotee. Not when they were shown originally, but much later, when they were in syndicated reruns. Some of them were downright silly. But others actually had some depth and considerable import to them. At least I felt like I could glean something of real significance from them.

There is one episode that I found fascinating. I think it was called Spock’s Brain. The premise was kind of silly: some aliens (all female) appear and steal Spock’s brain, take it to their underground living quarters, and proceed to wire it up as their central control unit. Of course, Kirk and McCoy must somehow reunite Spock’s brain with his still-functioning body. So they locate the brain and demand that the aliens put it back in. The women appear, but they’re all manifestly incapable of doing anything so complex. The woman who is the leader, when pressed for answers, makes reference to “The Teacher.” Well, it turns out that “The Teacher” is some kind of a device that can be placed on one’s head, and after it performs its function, it can then be removed and the recipient of its effect is immediately endowed with stupendous amounts of knowledge and understanding. It was by this means that the leader woman was able to remove Spock’s brain and install it as their control unit. However, the effect doesn’t last very long, and so after a while, the woman resumed her normal level of knowledge, understanding, and capacities.

Well, she refuses to use “The Teacher” in order to restore Spock’s brain, and therefore Kirk orders McCoy to attempt it. McCoy ultimately consents, places the unit on his head, and after a few moments where it looks like the device will fry his brain, it is removed, and his eyes light up. He immediately commences the operation on Spock, exclaiming, “Why, it’s so simple, a child could do it.”

.

You see there is the big difference. People who claim to know something from the Holy Ghost ( "The Teacher" in the analogy) do not then perform amazing feats of demostrated godlike knowledge by restoring a severed brain.
Indeed, they essentially display no new skills, come up with no field theory equation, do not restore brains, construct conscious beings, so even get any better at understanding questions of epistemology ( LOL).

Indeed, they do nothing that one wouldn't expect in case the that supposed knowledge was nothing more than a sense of certainty associated with a learned cosmic fantasy.

Resoring a brain is evidence of knowledge. Just saying "I know God exists and I am now a happy person" demonstrates nothing relevant.

[_William Schryver]

Tarski:

People who claim to know something from the Holy Ghost ( "The Teacher" in the analogy) do not then perform amazing feats of demostrated godlike knowledge …

How do you know this? Indeed, how could you know this?

Of course, you don’t know it. You are simply making an assertion based on your belief that no such power exists.

On the other hand, I have seen positive evidence of what I consider to be “amazing feats” which I attribute to the influence of what I call the Holy Ghost. And I am aware of many people who have testified that they also have seen positive evidence of such things. I could delineate many of these things, but it would be futile, for you would never consent to their authenticity. You would go from one dismissive argument to the next in rejecting the evidence.

And I’m OK with that. In fact, I am quite content to have you disbelieve. It matters not a bit to me. Unlike my more spiritually-advanced betters among the Latter-day Saints, I haven’t yet developed enough charity to mourn the loss of the faithless.

The whole point of my initial post was simply to respond to the question of how I know things. I answered the question to the best of my ability. I am satisfied with the methodology I employ in my search for meaning, knowledge, and truth. If you prefer another method, you’re welcome to it. I will not attempt to discredit it, nor dissuade you from its use. If it works for you and you are satisfied with it, I am content that you should cling to it.

[_The Nehor]

You see there is the big difference. People who claim to know something from the Holy Ghost ( "The Teacher" in the analogy) do not then perform amazing feats of demostrated godlike knowledge by restoring a severed brain.
Indeed, they essentially display no new skills, come up with no field theory equation, do not restore brains, construct conscious beings, so even get any better at understanding questions of epistemology ( LOL).

Indeed, they do nothing that one wouldn't expect in case the that supposed knowledge was nothing more than a sense of certainty associated with a learned cosmic fantasy.

Resoring a brain is evidence of knowledge. Just saying "I know God exists and I am now a happy person" demonstrates nothing relevant.

The people who receive the Holy Ghost and let it dwell in them get divine knowledge and change for the better. The best become real saints.

[_Who Knows]

The people who receive the Holy Ghost and let it dwell in them get divine knowledge and change for the better. The best become real saints.

Sounds like more circular reasoning:

How do you know it's the HG? Because i received divine knowledge and changed for the better.
How do you know that the HG is what did that? Because the HG gives you divine knowledge and changes you for the better.

[_Runtu]

The people who receive the Holy Ghost and let it dwell in them get divine knowledge and change for the better. The best become real saints.

Sounds like more circular reasoning:

How do you know it's the HG? Because I received divine knowledge and changed for the better.
How do you know that the HG is what did that? Because the HG gives you divine knowledge and changes you for the better.

One wonders about those folks who changed for the better without divine assistance. I don't think Mormons have a monopoly on positive change, do they?

[_Tarski]

Tarski:

People who claim to know something from the Holy Ghost ( "The Teacher" in the analogy) do not then perform amazing feats of demostrated godlike knowledge …

How do you know this? Indeed, how could you know this?

Of course, you don’t know it. You are simply making an assertion based on your belief that no such power exists.

On the other hand, I have seen positive evidence of what I consider to be “amazing feats” which I attribute to the influence of what I call the Holy Ghost. And I am aware of many people who have testified that they also have seen positive evidence of such things. I could delineate many of these things, but it would be futile, for you would never consent to their authenticity. You would go from one dismissive argument to the next in rejecting the evidence.

And I’m OK with that. In fact, I am quite content to have you disbelieve. It matters not a bit to me. Unlike my more spiritually-advanced betters among the Latter-day Saints, I haven’t yet developed enough charity to mourn the loss of the faithless.

The whole point of my initial post was simply to respond to the question of how I know things. I answered the question to the best of my ability. I am satisfied with the methodology I employ in my search for meaning, knowledge, and truth. If you prefer another method, you’re welcome to it. I will not attempt to discredit it, nor dissuade you from its use. If it works for you and you are satisfied with it, I am content that you should cling to it.

I have seen and heard such claims my entire life. In everycase, where closer inspection was possible, the claims dissolved into the mundane or ended up being untracable rumor akin to big foot sightings.

So Will, what amazing feats of knowledge have you demonstrated that don't have a more ready ordinary explanation?
Did you write the knowledge down or pass it on in verifable form?
Have you performed brain surgery without training or done anything else impossible without divine knowledge?

I am calling your bluff. Provide some compelling evidence of such knowledge!

[_asbestosman]

I don't think Mormons have a monopoly on positive change, do they?

If we did, we wouldn't want that knowledge to get out lest the government come in and fine us or split us up because of that monopoly. Just because we have well-documentated plans of rolling forth as a stone until it fills the whole earth doesn't mean we're going for a merger with the positive changes from all religions, does it? Or does it?

[_guy sajer]

Tarski:

People who claim to know something from the Holy Ghost ( "The Teacher" in the analogy) do not then perform amazing feats of demostrated godlike knowledge …

How do you know this? Indeed, how could you know this?

Of course, you don’t know it. You are simply making an assertion based on your belief that no such power exists.

On the other hand, I have seen positive evidence of what I consider to be “amazing feats” which I attribute to the influence of what I call the Holy Ghost. And I am aware of many people who have testified that they also have seen positive evidence of such things. I could delineate many of these things, but it would be futile, for you would never consent to their authenticity. You would go from one dismissive argument to the next in rejecting the evidence.

And I’m OK with that. In fact, I am quite content to have you disbelieve. It matters not a bit to me. Unlike my more spiritually-advanced betters among the Latter-day Saints, I haven’t yet developed enough charity to mourn the loss of the faithless.

The whole point of my initial post was simply to respond to the question of how I know things. I answered the question to the best of my ability. I am satisfied with the methodology I employ in my search for meaning, knowledge, and truth. If you prefer another method, you’re welcome to it. I will not attempt to discredit it, nor dissuade you from its use. If it works for you and you are satisfied with it, I am content that you should cling to it.

All well and good William. I am content to allow you your source of truth, however misguided I believe it to be. (Note that if we define "truth" as something absolute, then misguided applies; but if we define "truth" as something akin to "individual truth," such as insights into codes by which I chose to live, then I think we are on the same page, more or less.)

The question is, however, is whether you take this the next step and expect other to live according to the truths you've arrived at by purely subjective, inconsistent, and unverifiable methods? In other words, if you limit your "truths" to guides on how to live you life, then no problem, but if expand your "truth" as guides for others should live theirs, then we're at loggerheads.

Which are you?

(Note, I concede that all persons live by subjective codes, beliefs, principles, etc., but the important point point is that these subjective truths be subjected to the give and take of debate in society within some rational framework other than that of appeal to authority.)

[_asbestosman]

So Will, what amazing feats of knowledge have you demonstrated that don't have a more ready ordinary explanation?
Did you write the knowledge down or pass it on in verifable form?
Have you performed brain surgery without training or done anything else impossible without divine knowledge?

I am calling your bluff. Provide some compelling evidence of such knowledge!

I don't know what Liz thinks about this, but she shared an interesting story in the Celestial forum about how she learned about her grandmother's passing. Perhaps you could chalk it up to coincidence, but I'm not so quick to dismiss it that way.