Mormon Interpreter reviews "Shaken Faith Syndrome"

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_Doctor Scratch
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Re: Mormon Interpreter reviews "Shaken Faith Syndrome"

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Gadianton wrote:
Doctor Scratch wrote:What's more, our material is actually new.


Wait, are you saying the review of Ash is recycled?


I don't know that I'd say "recycled." But the Editor in Chief of the MI has been boasting for a couple of months now about their track record for putting out "new" material, and that just isn't true. Several of the articles have indeed been "recycled," but I don't know that I'd characterize this Smoot hit-piece that way. Instead, what we have here is a "kissing of the ring." It certainly is interesting that they are "reviewing" a book that's what, three? four years old? Hardly "new."
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_Bob Loblaw
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Re: Mormon Interpreter reviews "Shaken Faith Syndrome"

Post by _Bob Loblaw »

Aristotle Smith wrote:Re Joseph Smith vs. Jesus

While we know a lot more about the details of Joseph Smith's life, I don't think that accounts for making it more easy to believe in Jesus than in Joseph Smith, though it is a popular meme among ex-Mos.


That's not what I was getting at. Chap's point was that, because we know so much about Joseph's life, they identify with him more, and the betrayal seems bigger. It's not that it's easier to believe in Jesus but that there's more potential for disillusionment and disappointment with Mr. Smith.

What makes it hard to believe in Joseph Smith is the fact that he screwed other men's wives, young teenage girls, refused to follow his own rules (see Word of Wisdom), set up secret societies, lied continually (see polygamy in Nauvoo), pretended to translate documents, sought for power and money, etc.


Exactly, so when unwitting Mormons discover these things about their beloved martyred prophet, it's natural to feel shock and a sense of betrayal.

Jesus had the good sense to do none of this.

That is why it's easier to believe in Jesus, because he doesn't come off as a bastard (though ironically, the literal sense of the word fit him perfectly).


But the bastard version of Joseph Smith isn't the one we were presented in church. It's pretty easy to believe in the demigod version of Smith the church is peddling.
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Re: Mormon Interpreter reviews "Shaken Faith Syndrome"

Post by _Chap »

I'd like to strengthen the point I made earlier: the only substantive accounts we have from a few decades of Jesus' death are those of his devotees.

Now that does not prove those accounts are mendacious. But one really would have liked to have been able to balance them against some early but unsympathetic accounts, just to see which seemed more plausible.

We know there were some of Jesus's contemporaries who spoke about him with a a clear lack of sympathy or regard, to say the least. Witness words ascribed to Jesus himself in Matthew 11:

16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,

17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.

18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.

19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.


Jesus is saying "Look - how unfair people are saying that kind of thing about me!". Maybe he was right. But Joseph Smith dismissed criticisms in the same way, and there seems to be a considerable chance that he was not right.

With Jesus, we shall likely never know. (Unless that is, he turns up in the sky surrounded by angels one day, in which case we'd better believe he was right. There is still part of me that rather wishes he would: but I am not betting big money on it.)
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_huckelberry
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Re: Mormon Interpreter reviews "Shaken Faith Syndrome"

Post by _huckelberry »

Chap wrote: words ascribed to Jesus himself in Matthew 11:

16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,

17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.

18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.

19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.


Jesus is saying "Look - how unfair people are saying that kind of thing about me!". Maybe he was right. But Joseph Smith dismissed criticisms in the same way, and there seems to be a considerable chance that he was not right.

With Jesus, we shall likely never know. (Unless that is, he turns up in the sky surrounded by angels one day, in which case we'd better believe he was right. There is still part of me that rather wishes he would: but I am not betting big money on it.)


I do not see any reason to have to reject this description of Jesus. It seems to offer valuable information about him.
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Re: Mormon Interpreter reviews "Shaken Faith Syndrome"

Post by _Sethbag »

Ceeboo wrote:Hey Chap :smile:

Chap wrote:
Jesus' great advantage is that he is a good deal less easy to lose faith in, partly because we know so much less about him than we do about Joseph Smith.


Yea, that's it!
When comparing these two equal human beings, one simply and only had a "great advantage" over the other.

Only at the MDB!

Peace,
Ceeboo

I don't see the problem here. If Jesus truly existed at all (I think he probably did), he was almost certainly just a man, like Joseph Smith was just a man. It appears to me that the cult of Jesus really blew up decades after his death.

The amount of material about Joseph Smith that is contemporary with him, or nearly so, absolutely dwarfs the amount of such material relating to Jesus, and pretty much everything we have about Jesus was written decades after his deaths, by followers who were promoting their particular fiction about him.

From where I stand, Chap was spot-on in his assessment. Joseph Smith is far, far more susceptible to criticism based on contemporary writings relating to him than Jesus is, much to the advantage of the cult of Jesus.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
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Re: Mormon Interpreter reviews "Shaken Faith Syndrome"

Post by _Polygamy-Porter »

Ceeboo wrote:I had an in real life friend that recently shared a study with me (I don't have a link and/or proof to back this. Sorry) concerning the #1 reason why my LDS friends leave Mormonsim. The #1 reason was "they lost faith in Joseph Smith".

Wow! (in my opinion)

Peace,
Ceeboo

Look at the "Discussions" or lessons by the high pressure sales peeps(a.k.a. missionaries).

The most important thing that they want all converts to believe isn't Jesus is THE Christ or Savior etc,... no no no, the most important thing that converts must believe is that Joseph Smith Jr. was a divine PROPHET of God.

The whole of Mormonism rests on the divinity of his mantle. He is the keystone of the delicate arch.

Once the faith that Smith was divine, like an arch without the keystone, it all falls as quickly as gravity pulls it down.

Additionally, IF this Jesus exists at the center of the building of Mormonism, one cannot get inside to see him without first getting passed the doorman. The doorman is Joseph Smith Jr.
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_Ceeboo
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Re: Mormon Interpreter reviews "Shaken Faith Syndrome"

Post by _Ceeboo »

Sethbag wrote:From where I stand, Chap was spot-on in his assessment. Joseph Smith is far, far more susceptible to criticism based on contemporary writings relating to him than Jesus is, much to the advantage of the cult of Jesus.


Hey Seth, :smile:

Yea, I agree with Chap.
I stood (and stand) corrected. I posted as much a few posts up from this one.

Peace,
Ceeboo
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Re: Mormon Interpreter reviews "Shaken Faith Syndrome"

Post by _palerobber »

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Re: Mormon Interpreter reviews "Shaken Faith Syndrome"

Post by _palerobber »

Darth J wrote:
Smoot wrote:Contrary to the façade fabricated by self-assured and insulated critics, cognitive dissonance is a two-edged sword that cuts both ways.


The explanatory power of a metaphor is somewhat lost when you have to explicitly state what your metaphor means.


in Smoot's hands, metaphors are a two-edged sword.
_TrashcanMan79
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Re: Mormon Interpreter reviews "Shaken Faith Syndrome"

Post by _TrashcanMan79 »

Smoot wrote:Contrary to the façade fabricated by self-assured and insulated critics, cognitive dissonance is a two-edged sword that cuts both ways.

I won't be taking the time to read Smoot's review, but if any of my more adventurous brothers or sisters could tell me what facts Smoot feels should (or could) cause cognitive dissonance in critics (the self-assured and insulated ones, anyway), I would be eternally grateful.
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