The Book of Mormon DOES say "others" where there.....

[_robuchan]

Each one of these "Others" arguments are all pretty weak. Put them together and they don't look any stronger. The Sherem argument is usually trotted out first as the best argument, but it's a real stretch. See the Sherem thread in the Celestial Forum.

[_robuchan]

Celestial Forum doesn't get much traffic, so I'll repost here.

The Sherem argument for LGT is weak.

It makes so many unnecessary assumptions.

"there came a man among the people of Nephi"
incorrect assumption: that he was a stranger or non-Lehite
he could have been a Lamanite, Zoramite, Lemuelite, Ishmaelite, or for that matter a Nephite. that short phrase implies nothing. "There came a man among the people of Provo" could easily be referring to someone born and raised in Provo. If a crowd gathers in Provo and a man comes among them, he has come among the people of Provo, regardless of whether he also lives in Provo or not. Additionally, the Book of Mormon (specifically first edition) is full of incorrect grammar and awkward sentences like this, so there is no reason to strain for an alternative meaning when the context of the story does nothing to imply a foreigner.

"he had a perfect knowledge of the language of the people"
incorrect assumption: that he is not a native speaker of the Nephite's language and had to learn it
the entire verse: "And he was learned, that he had a perfect knowledge of the language of the people; wherefore, he could use much flattery, and much power of speech, according to the power of the devil." The distinction of being perfect in language is clearly one in terms of perfecting one's own native language in terms of grammar, usage, vocabulary, reasoning, etc, not in terms of perfecting a second language.

"I have sought much opportunity that I might speak unto you;"
incorrect assumption: that Sherem had to travel long distance to meet Jacob or otherwise lacked in opportunity to talk to Jacob
that's a possible reading but not necessary. The phrase "sought much opportunity" doesn't really make sense. I could also assume it meant "I've been thinking about talking to you for a long time" or "I prepared a long time for this encounter"

incorrect assumption: this happened within 20 years of when Nephites landed
Jacob's son Enos died 179 years after Nephites landed. It could be 100 years later.

incorrect assumption: it would be impossible for Jacob and Sherem to be unfamiliar with each other
1. the story still makes sense even if they are familiar with each other
2. They were populating a new land. A point of reference for number of children was Sariah, who had at least eight children. The time frame could be multiple generations later. There were a couple dozen people on Lehi's boat, so it's easy to extrapolate that out and imagine two people not knowing each other.

Further:
1. The Book of Mormon is full of internal inconsistencies dealing with numbers, ie populations growing too fast, battles with the number of slayed way too high to be realistic, ages not making sense (the Jacob-Enos thing is repeated often). There is no reason to make a wild extrapolation about Sherem based on something like the numbers not making sense.
2. Sherem believed in an Old Testament Law of Moses Hebrew religion. And he read and was familiar with Hebrew scripture. This theory requires one to believe Sherem, a native Mesoamerican, was converted to the Lehites Hebrew Christianity, read their scriptures, determined the prophesy of Christ was false, and came to believe the original form of Old Testament religion was true. That's a real stretch. And opens a can of worms. Why does the Book of Mormon never make mention of other non-Lehite converts or ministries to the non-Lehite population? They speak a lot about ministries to the Lamanites and Lamanite converts.

[_DarkHelmet]

Before DNA
http://publications.maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1402&index=2

From That Article:

In the 5 April 1929 general conference of the church, Anthony W. Ivins, first counselor in the First Presidency, urged: "We must be careful in the conclusions that we reach. The Book of Mormon teaches the history of three distinct peoples . . . who came from the old world to this continent. It does not tell us that there was no one here before them. It does not tell us that people did not come after. . . . We do believe that other people came to this continent."41

However, Here is this full Quote in its actual context:

We must be careful in the conclusions that we reach. The Book of Mormon teaches the history of three distinct peoples, or two peoples and three different colonies of people, who came from the old world to this continent. It does not tell us that there was no one here before them. It does not tell us that people did not come after. And so if discoveries are made which suggest differences in race origins, it can very easily be accounted for, and reasonably, for we do believe that other people came to this continent. A thousand years had elapsed from the time the Book of Mormon closed until the discovery of America, and we know that other people came to America during that period.

viewtopic.php?p=794230#p794230

Wow. That's a pretty blatant misrepresentation of the quote. Since ldsfaqs is so quick to call people liars, I wonder what he thinks of this.

[_GR33N]

You might want to keep reading.... and then take some advice.

10 But behold, when the time cometh that they shall dwindle in unbelief, after they have received so great blessings from the hand of the Lord—having a knowledge of the creation of the earth, and all men, knowing the great and marvelous works of the Lord from the creation of the world; having power given them to do all things by faith; having all the commandments from the beginning, and having been brought by his infinite goodness into this precious land of promise—behold, I say, if the day shall come that they will reject the Holy One of Israel, the true Messiah, their Redeemer and their God, behold, the judgments of him that is just shall rest upon them.

11 Yea, he will bring other nations unto them, and he will give unto them power, and he will take away from them the lands of their possessions, and he will cause them to be scattered and smitten.

12 Yea, as one generation passeth to another there shall be bloodsheds, and great visitations among them; wherefore, my sons, I would that ye would remember; yea, I would that ye would hearken unto my words.

13 O that ye would awake; awake from a deep sleep, yea, even from the sleep of hell, and shake off the awful chains by which ye are bound, which are the chains which bind the children of men, that they are carried away captive down to the eternal gulf of misery and woe.

Let's return to our seminary lessons shall we....

In 2 Nephi 1:9, the phrase “this land” refers to the Americas. What did the Lord promise to the obedient who would live in “this land”?

https://www.LDS.org/manual/book-of-morm ... 2?lang=eng

2 Nephi 1:8,9 reads....

8 And behold, it is wisdom that this land the Americas should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations; for behold, many nations would overrun the land Americas, that there would be no place for an inheritance.

9 Wherefore, I, Lehi, have obtained a promise, that inasmuch as those whom the Lord God shall bring out of the land of Jerusalem shall keep his commandments, they shall prosper upon the face of this land the Americas; and they shall be kept from all other nations, that they may possess this land the Americas unto themselves. And if it so be that they shall keep his commandments they shall be blessed upon the face of this land the Americas, and there shall be none to molest them, nor to take away the land Americas of their inheritance; and they shall dwell safely forever.

https://www.LDS.org/scriptures/Book of Mormon/2-ne/1.9?lang=eng#8

So the official position, as taught in Seminary, is that the Americas ("the land") was kept and would be kept from all other nations.

Official sources, official teachings, official explanation.

I do believe that's Game Over for "the others" apologetic.

[_I have a question]

You might want to keep reading.... and then take some advice.

11 Yea, he will bring other nations unto them, and he will give unto them power, and he will take away from them the lands of their possessions, and he will cause them to be scattered and smitten.

Why would he bring "other nations unto them" if the other nations were already there in the Americas?

I think you just reinforced my point (and the seminary lesson).
Thanks.

[_Themis]

You might want to keep reading.... and then take some advice.

You might want to read the first verse you quoted.

[_Themis]

You might want to keep reading.... and then take some advice.

11 Yea, he will bring other nations unto them, and he will give unto them power, and he will take away from them the lands of their possessions, and he will cause them to be scattered and smitten.

Why would he bring "other nations unto them" if the other nations were already there in the Americas?

I think you just reinforced my point (and the seminary lesson).
Thanks.

Ouch.

[Guest]

You might want to keep reading.... and then take some advice.

10 But behold, when the time cometh that they shall dwindle in unbelief, after they have received so great blessings from the hand of the Lord—having a knowledge of the creation of the earth, and all men, knowing the great and marvelous works of the Lord from the creation of the world; having power given them to do all things by faith; having all the commandments from the beginning, and having been brought by his infinite goodness into this precious land of promise—behold, I say, if the day shall come that they will reject the Holy One of Israel, the true Messiah, their Redeemer and their God, behold, the judgments of him that is just shall rest upon them.

11 Yea, he will bring other nations unto them, and he will give unto them power, and he will take away from them the lands of their possessions, and he will cause them to be scattered and smitten.

12 Yea, as one generation passeth to another there shall be bloodsheds, and great visitations among them; wherefore, my sons, I would that ye would remember; yea, I would that ye would hearken unto my words.

13 O that ye would awake; awake from a deep sleep, yea, even from the sleep of hell, and shake off the awful chains by which ye are bound, which are the chains which bind the children of men, that they are carried away captive down to the eternal gulf of misery and woe.

The first part of verse 9 in 2 Nephi 1 is explicit:

9 Wherefore, I, Lehi, have obtained a promise, that inasmuch as those whom the Lord God shall bring out of the land of Jerusalem shall keep his commandments, they shall prosper upon the face of this land; and they shall be kept from all other nations, that they may possess this land unto themselves.

The chapter promises Lehi that the land of promise is an inheritance to his descendants and that only those led by God can come to the land of promise. The section I quote directly above explicitly excludes others until his seed fails to keep whatever commandments they're supposedly living under.

A side-note: That last point is a subject I'd be interesting in hearing a believing LDS apostle speak on. What exactly were the specific beliefs, practices, and teachings of the Nephites? What did their Messianic Judaism actually entail given what's available in the Book of Mormon? Actually, I'd probably be more interested if someone like Don Bradley took on the question.

Side-note 2: Tobin and ldsfaqs had to have violated a scare quote cap of some kind in their first two posts in this thread. Surely there is an internet law regarding this?

[_Tobin]

Side-note 2: Tobin and ldsfaqs had to have violated a scare quote cap of some kind in their first two posts in this thread. Surely there is an internet law regarding this?

Huh? Care to explain that one.

[_honorentheos]

Side-note 2: Tobin and ldsfaqs had to have violated a scare quote cap of some kind in their first two posts in this thread. Surely there is an internet law regarding this?

Huh? Care to explain that one.

I should have included the third post as well. When I started reading the thread, the "not", "others", "dark" etc., etc., was amusing. The third post when faqs scare-quoted "dumb" and "assumptions" was almost parody of the earlier use of scare quotes. So, I apologize that your one scare-quote of "dark" got you lumped in. Still, it stands to reason there is an internet law somewhere regarding overuse of scare quotes. Oh well. If only someone invented a searchable and accessible way to query the vast Library of Babel that is the internet.