I think what I've stated is perfectly reasonable if the Book of Mormon claims about the Jaredites have a basis in fact. As I've pointed out, from the scant description we have about these craft, they clearly employed either advanced technology or magic. I'm betting on the former. You are welcome to believe in magic if you wish.brotherjake wrote:I know I shouldn't be surprised by it, but Tobin's arc in this thread has been fascinatingly bizarre. At every turn he proposes a solution that presents an even bigger problem to the original scenario. Yet, when confronted by that problem, he looks at it as an indication of his solution's plausibility. It's not a bug, it's a feature! Turtles all the way down.
I know, I know--don't feed the trolls and all that. I just can't help rubbernecking a bit, though.
Sometimes Apologists Piss Me Off
-
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 8417
- Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:01 pm
Re: Sometimes Apologists Piss Me Off
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
-
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 1483
- Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2015 9:17 am
Re: Sometimes Apologists Piss Me Off
brotherjake wrote:I know I shouldn't be surprised by it, but Tobin's arc in this thread has been fascinatingly bizarre. At every turn he proposes a solution that presents an even bigger problem to the original scenario. Yet, when confronted by that problem, he looks at it as an indication of his solution's plausibility. It's not a bug, it's a feature! Turtles all the way down.
I know, I know--don't feed the trolls and all that. I just can't help rubbernecking a bit, though.
I can't either. It's oddly entertaining reading.
People like Coldplay and voted for the Nazis. You can't trust people, Jeremy.- Super Hans
We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.- H. L. Mencken
We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.- H. L. Mencken
-
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 98
- Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2015 9:46 pm
Re: Sometimes Apologists Piss Me Off
Tobin wrote:I think what I've stated is perfectly reasonable if the Book of Mormon claims about the Jaredites have a basis in fact. As I've pointed out, from the scant description we have about these craft, they clearly employed either advanced technology or magic. I'm betting on the former. You are welcome to believe in magic if you wish.brotherjake wrote:I know I shouldn't be surprised by it, but Tobin's arc in this thread has been fascinatingly bizarre. At every turn he proposes a solution that presents an even bigger problem to the original scenario. Yet, when confronted by that problem, he looks at it as an indication of his solution's plausibility. It's not a bug, it's a feature! Turtles all the way down.
I know, I know--don't feed the trolls and all that. I just can't help rubbernecking a bit, though.
I love how your explanation takes the historical accuracy of the Jaredite story as a given--the only choices left are to explain it through either magic or alien intervention.
Never change, Tobin.
-
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 16721
- Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:06 am
Re: Sometimes Apologists Piss Me Off
MissTish wrote:I can't either. It's oddly entertaining reading.
Don't worry. You'll eventually get tired of us. Either that, or he'll angrily tell you he's putting you on "ignore."
His is a rather circular reasoning.
The Book of Mormon makes claims that are fantastical and seem impossible by human standards.
Advanced beings must have done these things with advanced technology that we don't know about or understand.
How do we know these advanced beings exist? How else do we explain these fantastical claims?
It works for him, I guess.
-
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 8417
- Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:01 pm
Re: Sometimes Apologists Piss Me Off
I'm not as closed-minded as you that I discount things off-hand. For the Book of Mormon claims to be historical (given what we know today), that has some interesting ramifications. I think it is a very rational statement to say that magic doesn't exist, so for any of this to be possible technology must be involved.brotherjake wrote:I love how your explanation takes the historical accuracy of the Jaredite story as a given--the only choices left are to explain it through either magic or alien intervention.
Never change, Tobin.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
-
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 8417
- Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:01 pm
Re: Sometimes Apologists Piss Me Off
Runtu wrote:MissTish wrote:I can't either. It's oddly entertaining reading.
Don't worry. You'll eventually get tired of us. Either that, or he'll angrily tell you he's putting you on "ignore."
His is a rather circular reasoning.
The Book of Mormon makes claims that are fantastical and seem impossible by human standards.
Advanced beings must have done these things with advanced technology that we don't know about or understand.
How do we know these advanced beings exist? How else do we explain these fantastical claims?
It works for him, I guess.
And Runtu proposes no possible answers (i.e. we must discount the whole thing) or he would have us believe that magic is real. As I've pointed out in other threads, the claims made in the Book of Mormon are extraordinary, but that doesn't mean they aren't possible. I'm simply describing a very rational way that these claims could be factual given the extraordinary situations being depicted in the Book of Mormon.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
-
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 21663
- Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:02 am
Re: Sometimes Apologists Piss Me Off
Tobin wrote:I'm simply describing a very rational way that these claims could be factual given the extraordinary situations being depicted in the Book of Mormon.
But you don't actually describe anything. You throw out vague possibilities that are just as implausible as anything else. You need to be more descriptive and thorough to help us understand your position.
- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
-
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 16721
- Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:06 am
Re: Sometimes Apologists Piss Me Off
By the way, this thread is about dishonest apologetics. I think we all agree that the FairMormon article is both sloppy and misleading.
-
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 8417
- Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:01 pm
Re: Sometimes Apologists Piss Me Off
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Tobin wrote:I'm simply describing a very rational way that these claims could be factual given the extraordinary situations being depicted in the Book of Mormon.
But you don't actually describe anything. You throw out vague possibilities that are just as implausible as anything else. You need to be more descriptive and thorough to help us understand your position.
- Doc
Actually, I don't have specifics because the Book of Mormon is rather vague about what technologies were being used. I can only make guesses because I don't know how a wave-propelled ship would actually be engineered. The same would be true for the internal structure of these barges that allows the outer hull to rotate independently of the internal structure. Other examples include the power source that was used for the artificial lighting, air circulation systems, waste management systems and other equipment barges like this would require to make such a voyage even possible.
If such vessels were actually constructed, that would be a remarkable feat and opens the door on the question of where this technology came from? I seriously doubt human-beings from 2200 BC were that advanced.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
-
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 21663
- Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:02 am
Re: Sometimes Apologists Piss Me Off
Tobin wrote: I seriously doubt human-beings from 2200 BC were that advanced.
Have you given consideration that it was just an ill-conceived plot device in a book that was simply made up? That seems more likely, no?
- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.