The non-coin coin system of the Book of Mormon. Scam?

[Shulem]

More proof that the Nephites had coins as medium of exchange, rather than the weight and unit of account system that existed in 600 BC. Peterson sells it as a sophisticated weight system. What's striking in the Bible quote is the scale. A talent is 3,000 shekels. As a weight system, the Nephite system is wholly inadequate. How would you ever facilitate a large transaction?

A judge's salary theoretically approaches an onti a week or roughly 50 ontis per year if he has lots of cases. That would be a fairly large sum of money, certainly more than Zeezrom's six onties ("which are of great worth") in which he sought to tempt Amulek in denying the existence of God. Little wonder that Amulek didn't take the bait for a mere week of wages. It would have to be a lot more than that!

So how were large purchases made? How much would an opulent ranch style house with lots of livestock and a vineyard cost? Certainly it would sell for a pretty onti -- but how many onties? I don't think Joseph Smith thought it through anymore than how rediculous it was to think that Nephi and his rag-tag band could actually build a temple patterned somewhat after Solomon's.

FOR SALE

Opulent Nephite house with livestock and vineyard
(Lamanite dancing girls (scented muffs included) cost extra)

only
1,000 onties

Call today! 900-eat-poop

[Shulem]

Isn't the senine the base unit?

Yes, it was the base unit and a day's wage for a judge. How hardly does it compare to the widow's mite or a farthing.

That's my point, MG. Surely you get it now.

[Gabriel]

Note that Joseph Smith adds two sentences from Jesus' sermon in the Book of Mormon which are not in the Bible. It's rather stunning because Smith wants his hearers to realize that a man sitting in prison is unemployed and power of the purse is therefore limited. Here is the verse with the extra rendition colored blue:

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, thou shalt by no means come out thence until thou hast paid the uttermost senine. And while ye are in prison can ye pay even one senine? Verily, verily, I say unto you, Nay.

Smith is attempting to make it clear that paying debts while in prison is no easy task. But note how he goofed up by using the senine which is the base value or the midpoint of the monetary range. And he attempts to make the senine seem like a low value coin by saying, "even one."; as if to ask how can someone produce a single senine which reckoning is low like a penny or a mite? Smith should have used a fractional coin to make his point: Shiblon, Shiblum, Leah.

Screw up! Smith is caught red-handed making crap up and getting the value of his Nephite coins mixed up. He should not have used the base level coin for his example. It does not jive with what Jesus told the Jews. The devil is in the details!

From Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible:

Verse Matthew 5:26. The uttermost farthing. — Κοδραντην. The rabbins have this Greek word corrupted into קרדיונטסס kordiontes, and קונטריק, kontrik, and say, that two פרוטות prutoth make a kontarik, which is exactly the same with those words in Mark 12:42, λεπτα δυο, ο εστι κοδραντης, two mites, which are one farthing. Hence it appears that the λεπτον lepton was the same as the prutah. The weight of the prutah was half a barley-corn, and it was the smallest coin among the Jews, as the kodrantes, or farthing, was the smallest coin among the Romans. If the matter issue in law, strict justice will be done, and your creditor be allowed the fulness of his just claim...

Source: https://www.studylight.org/commentaries ... hew-5.html

Although the greater value-numberings of Nephite and Hebrew monies diverge, their lesser values line up nicely. Here’s how the Nephite Senine compares with the Hebrew Shekel:

A Nephite Senine (equal to a measure of barley or other kind of grain)
A Hebrew Shekel

A Nephite Shiblon = 1/2 Senine (or half a measure of Barley)
A Hebrew Beka = 1/2 Shekel

A Nephite Shiblum = 1/4 Senine
A Hebrew Drachm = 1/4 Shekel (englished as a “Farthing” in the Bible)

A Nephite Leah = 1/8 Senine (the lowest value of Nephite money).
A Hebrew Prutah = 1/8 Shekel (the lowest value of Hebrew coinage. Its weight is half of a barley-corn. This is the widow’s mite.)

[MG 2.0]

Isn't the senine the base unit?

Yes, it was the base unit and a day's wage for a judge. How hardly does it compare to the widow's mite or a farthing.

That's my point, MG. Surely you get it now.

What was the unit of measurement smaller than a senine? A unit that a widow might have on her person?

Regards,
MG

[Gadianton]

Catching up here; yes Gabrial, fixing grain to silver is very bad for the reasons you say. That parity would have been much worse than silver vs. gold that I mentioned.

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, thou shalt by no means come out thence until thou hast paid the uttermost senine.

A lot of good commentary on this; paying down to a judge's wage for the day is not quite paying down the debt to the last penny. That's a real slight to God's justice.

That verse leapt out at me when I read it, I just don't ever recall reading it before. It sounds so hokey. It really jumps out in all its silliness. I didn't think of the above point, it just sounds so funny; the lone Nephite word.

Exactly, and as such, standardization is established by government like that which was "established by king Mosiah." The people were subject to government and money is always under governmental control in any civilized society. The pieces of gold and silver were cut, shaped to size, and undoubtedly stamped with various designs to designate their value.

Usually the image of the leader; the Senine no doubt had Mosiah's face on it.

[Morley]

Yes, it was the base unit and a day's wage for a judge. How hardly does it compare to the widow's mite or a farthing.

That's my point, MG. Surely you get it now.

What was the unit of measurement smaller than a senine? A unit that a widow might have on her person?

Regards,
MG

Read Gabriel's post that precedes your own.

You decried that there's nothing new here. This is new to me. It looks like it may be new to you, too.

[Shulem]

What was the unit of measurement smaller than a senine? A unit that a widow might have on her person?

Sigh.

You're not following along, MG. Are you skimming through posts or actually reading them? Or is your question of a facetious nature in order to upset me? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps this is all new to you. Let Shulem teach you something new under the sun!

My friend, the answer is: shiblum and leah.

Certainly you can see how the "leah" is more agreeable to the value level of a farthing or mite that rest easily in the bottom of the coat pocket of a little old lady. The point being that Mormon Jesus should not have used the "senine" to compare with money used by the Jews at Jerusalem. Little old ladies don't carry the value of a judge's daily wage in their purses. They are broke and are lucky to have a couple of mites or a farthing or a leah depending on what side of the world we are talking about. But apparently Mormon Jesus does not understand the difference which proves he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Now, I'm sure we are on the same page of music, MG. Congrats!

[Shulem]

A Nephite Senine (equal to a measure of barley or other kind of grain)
A Hebrew Shekel

A Nephite Shiblon = 1/2 Senine (or half a measure of Barley)
A Hebrew Beka = 1/2 Shekel

A Nephite Shiblum = 1/4 Senine
A Hebrew Drachm = 1/4 Shekel (englished as a “Farthing” in the Bible)

A Nephite Leah = 1/8 Senine (the lowest value of Nephite money).
A Hebrew Prutah = 1/8 Shekel (the lowest value of Hebrew coinage. Its weight is half of a barley-corn. This is the widow’s mite.)

It comes down to the basic and common POWER OF 4! Joseph Smith was aware of the power of four and even correctly surmised a connection thereof with the Four Sons of Horus in Facsimile No. 2, Fig. 6: "Represents this earth in its four quarters." And then there are the four winds and four cardinal directions -- thus, four.

But with Nephite money we also have a power of 4 being fractioned wherein the single (1) base unit is divided:

1) Senine = 1 measure of grain
2) Shiblon = 1/2 measure of grain
3) Shiblum = 1/4 measure of grain
4) Leah = 1/8 measure of grain

This is not rocket science and even a child can play this game. Joseph Smith understood the value of a dollar. He had a basic sense of fractions and how they relate to the whole. But when it came to very large numbers he missed the mark because the Nephite money system doesn't account for that kind of reckoning.

[Shulem]

It's a good question, and one that I think Shulem is most qualified to answer or speculate on, if he happens upon this thread.

Thank you for the vote of confidence. I'm glad your thread has received some attention and that I've popped in to assist. I hope you're not disappointed with the outcome.

[Shulem]

Nehor get's paid for priestcraft through the donations of his followers:

And it came to pass that he did teach these things so much that many did believe on his words, even so many that they began to support him and give him money.

Notice how his followers ("they") began to "give" Nehor money for his preachings? (Reminds me of podcasters today asking for donations while on the air)

I think it's reasonable to assume that these grateful followers rewarded Nehor with COINS or "pieces of their gold, and of their silver." Maybe he was also paid with goods and services but cash is always king. And we know Nehor loved to "wear very costly  apparel!" So, what is money?

MONEY, noun plural moneys.

1. Coin; stamped metal; any piece of metal, usually gold, silver or copper, stamped by public authority, and used as the medium of commerce. We sometimes give the name of money to other coined metals, and to any other material which rude nations use a medium of trade. But among modern commercial nations, gold, silver and copper are the only metals used for this purpose. Gold and silver, containing great value in small compass, and being therefore of easy conveyance, and being also durable and little liable to diminution by use, are the most convenient metals for coin or money which is the representative of commodities of all kinds, of lands, and of every thing that is capable of being transferred in commerce.

From the Church website: