David Bokovoy Issues a Devastating Critique of the Mopologists' "Scholarship"

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Benjamin McGuire
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Re: David Bokovoy Issues a Devastating Critique of the Mopologists' "Scholarship"

Post by Benjamin McGuire »

Fence Sitter wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 8:04 pm
I am doing research into the books that were used and or owned by Joseph Smith and the impact those books had on him and his work. We know Smith was familiar with Jahn's because he quoted from it in T&S Sept 1842. I would love to see more about the Phelps article. Can you provide more information on it and where I might find it?
We know that Phelps had acquired a copy of Thomas Upham's translation of Jahn's Biblical Archaeology. I believe he had a copy of the 1832 (3rd) edition (I don't think in the sections I have worked with that there are significant changes from the second edition). It is more of an encyclopedia styled book. Apart from the section on Ezekiel, there are two other really important contributions to early Mormon discussions that I attach to this book. The first of these is the label Urim and Thummim, applied to the Nephite Interpreters. It seems quite likely that Phelps was the first to call the interpreters a Urim and Thummim based on his reading of Jahn's text. The second is that in a section of an editorial that Phelps wrote, in which he is quoting extensively from this book, he provides one of the earliest, detailed descriptions of the gold plates.

You can find a copy of this text here:

https://books.google.com/books?id=714vAAAAYAAJ

So, to go back to Ezekiel, Phelps wrote in The Evening and Morning Star (Vol. 1, No. 8):
Ezek. also says: Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, for Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, for Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and all the house of Israel his companions: and join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thy hand. The Bible for the stick of Judah, and the Book of Mormon for the stick of Joseph, in the hand of Ephraim, is all that need be said, upon these words, for no man ever pretended to know, (till the Book of Mormon came,) any thing about the tribe of Joseph, or his history, notwithstanding God had declared by the mouth of Hosea, That he had written the great things of his law to Ephraim; and they are counted a strange thing. The ancient and modern practice of reading sticks, wants but little elucidation. The common school-boy ought to know, that anciently, they wrote on parchment for common use, and rolled it round a stick; and, latterly, newspapers are put into a stick for public utility.
The book that I linked has this on P. 95-6:
Books being written upon very flexible materials, were rolled round a stick ; and, if they were very long, round two, from the two extremities. The reader unrolled the book to the place which he wanted, [greek text omitted] and rolled it up again when he had read it, [greek text], Luke 4: 17—20; whence the name [hebrew text] a volume, or thing rolled up, Ps. 40:7. Is. 34:4. Ezek. 2:9. 2 K. 19:14. Ezra 6:2. The leaves thus rolled round the stick, which has been mentioned, and bound with a string, could be easily sealed, Is. 29: 11. Dan. 12:4. Rev. 5:1. 6:7. Those books, which were inscribed on tablets of wood, lead, brass, or ivory, were connected together by rings at the back, through which a rod was passed to carry them by.
A veritable gold mine right? brass tablets (plates) connected by rings, sealed books, and so on (and as you note continued to be of interest since it is quoted in the T&S in 1842). In the same article (Phelp's article), he later makes this comment:
It may be well to state, that the prophet of God, in ancient days, according to the accounts of men, kept their sacred records on plates of gold, and those of less consequence on plates of brass, copper, wood, &c., see Jahn's biblical archeology, Josephus, and others. These plates were generally made from the sixteenth to the thirty second part of an inch thick (of metal) and something like six by eight inches square, and fastened at the back with three rings through which a rod was put to carry them, or hang them. The word of the Lord, the history of the doings of the children of God, and their genealogy was engraved in a nice workmanlike manner, upon them, in Hebrew, reformed Egyptian, &c. Such was the condition of the plates, from which came the Book of Mormon.
Since nothing with dimensions like this can be found in these texts, my assumption is that this is a description of the gold plates. And of course, it matches fairly well the description from the Wentworth Letter (March, 1842):
These records were engraven on plates which had the appearance of gold. Each plate was six inches wide and eight inches long, and not quite so thick as common tin. They were filled with engravings, in Egyptian characters, and bound together in a volume as the leaves of a book, with three rings running through the whole. The volume was something near six inches in thickness, a part of which was sealed. The characters on the unsealed part were small, and beautifully engraved.
Finally, Phelps is (I think) the first LDS member to call the Nephite interpreters a Urim and Thummim. He hints at it in July of 1832 (in Vol. 1, No. 2 of The Evening and Morning Star) when he discusses the nature of Teraphim: "They were even to do without the Teraphim, [Urim & Thummim, perhaps] or sacred spectacles or declarers; supposed to be the same called gods and images when Jacob fled, from Laban." He identifies the Urim and the Thummim with the Teraphim, and mentions the 'sacred spectacles' in the process. But he wouldn't really flesh this out until the January, 1833 article in which he writes: "The Book of Mormon, as a revelation from God, possesses some advantage over the old scripture: it has not been tinctured by the wisdom of man, with here and there an Italic word to supply deficiencies.-It was translated by the gift and power of God, by an unlearned man, through the aid of a pair of Interpreters, or spectacles-(known, perhaps, in ancient days as Teraphim, or Urim and Thummim)...". I suspect that some of this comes from Jahn's statement about Teraphim that "It appears from Ezekiel (ch. 21:21,) that responses were sought from them, the same as from Oracles. ... This is confirmed by 1 Sam. 15:23, where Teraphim are spoken of in connexion with the arts of divination." Whatever role Jahn's text played, Phelps had just obtained his copy in the summer of 1832, and his views (speculative and not accurate) that July solidified by January of 1833, and the connection (which was likely appealing for lots of reasons) spreads through the Mormon community and is codified in the changes to D&C Section 10 in 1835.

I have a couple of additional notes that I am not sure I can decipher anymore. For what its worth, this text seemed to play a significant role in biblicizing (for lack of a better word) the early Mormon narratives of the production of the Book of Mormon.
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Re: David Bokovoy Issues a Devastating Critique of the Mopologists' "Scholarship"

Post by Gabriel »

Benjamin McGuire wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 4:19 pm

Don't get me wrong. The challenge with the essay that is being critiqued is that it too doesn't try to explain what we see in any systematic or methodological fashion. Consider this:
A. Keith Thompson wrote:First, in several places in the Book of Mormon the reference is to “the books of Moses” rather than to “the five books of Moses,” and even where there is now reference to “the five” books of Moses, he suggests that Joseph Smith may have added the number “five” because he felt he independently knew there were five books of Moses, and he was justified in being more specific. Second, he notes that the version of the Ten Commandments which Abinadi quoted to the priests of King Noah varies a little from our King James version in Exodus 20. We ought not be surprised, since there is variation between the version of the Ten Commandments familiar to modern-day Protestants and Catholics. Barney’s point is that there may have been separate E (Brass Plates?), P (Exodus 20), and D (Deuteronomy 5) versions of the Ten Commandments, and we do not know which version Abinadi memorized, presumably with the Brass Plates as his source.
So, the question I would ask is this, why doesn't the rationale behind the first example also work for the second? Couldn't we argue that the version of the Ten Commandments occurs in the way it does precisely because it was a version that Joseph Smith was familiar with? (Again, I discuss ways of talking about these issues in the presentation I linked earlier). This essay isn't particularly useful to me because it doesn't actually answer its own questions.

There are more statements that I find highly problematic in this context. Consider this:
A. Keith Thompson wrote: "Nicholas Frederick identifies additional possibilities when he suggests the term “biblical interaction” rather than mere “allusion” to explain intertextuality in the Book of Mormon."
Frederick understands what I set out to explain in my first published piece - that intertextuality can be a deliberate and interactive process between two texts (or traditions) or it can be something incidental. I am not sure that Thompson really understands why this difference is important, and why the distinction between the gold plates (ancient source) and Book of Mormon (modern English text) is important.

Of course, I might question the idea of being 'merely the result of a nineteenth-century translation' only in that such a statement contains embedded assumptions about what a translation is. Should we consider translators to be authors in their own right?
Benjamin,
In the comments section of Interpreter, I took the liberty of posting a link to your mild criticism of Keith's thesis here on DiscussMormonism.com. No doubt, I am sure that you did the honorable thing by first informing him that you were going to air your issues with his work in this particular venue. I am sure that he has signed off on it and is honored that you have weighed in here with your own area of expertise.

Of course, my comment at Interpreter is awaiting moderation for the moment. Time will tell. To Interpreter's credit, they did allow a link to David Bokovoy's response to Thompson's article in the comments section:

Michael Olsen wrote: on May 30, 2021 at 5:17 pm said:
For starters, here is a specific critique of the article by David Bokovoy, an expert in this field: http://www.withoutend.org/apologetics-d ... -response/
However, it does not appear to be well received:

Theodore Brandley wrote: on May 31, 2021 at 4:57 pm said:
I have zero confidence or interest in the opinions of someone who sets himself up as a leader of “Mormon Studies” and then, “challenges the belief that the Pentateuch is connected to the Prophet Moses,” or even that “Moses was a historical person,” and denies the revelatory nature of the Book of Mormon or the Book of Moses.
Maybe, Interpreter's readership will be more open to your friendly fire.

Benjamin McGuire wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 4:19 pm
Back to Symmachus:
Brother, do you really want to go there?
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Re: David Bokovoy Issues a Devastating Critique of the Mopologists' "Scholarship"

Post by malkie »

Gabriel wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:55 am
...
Benjamin,
In the comments section of Interpreter, I took the liberty of posting a link to your mild criticism of Keith's thesis here on DiscussMormonism.com. No doubt, I am sure that you did the honorable thing by first informing him that you were going to air your issues with his work in this particular venue. I am sure that he has signed off on it and is honored that you have weighed in here with your own area of expertise.

Of course, my comment at Interpreter is awaiting moderation for the moment. Time will tell. To Interpreter's credit, they did allow a link to David Bokovoy's response to Thompson's article in the comments section:

Michael Olsen wrote: on May 30, 2021 at 5:17 pm said:
For starters, here is a specific critique of the article by David Bokovoy, an expert in this field: http://www.withoutend.org/apologetics-d ... -response/
However, it does not appear to be well received:

Theodore Brandley wrote: on May 31, 2021 at 4:57 pm said:
I have zero confidence or interest in the opinions of someone who sets himself up as a leader of “Mormon Studies” and then, “challenges the belief that the Pentateuch is connected to the Prophet Moses,” or even that “Moses was a historical person,” and denies the revelatory nature of the Book of Mormon or the Book of Moses.
Maybe, Interpreter's readership will be more open to your friendly fire.

Benjamin McGuire wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 4:19 pm
Back to Symmachus:
Brother, do you really want to go there?
I don't know whether to laugh or --- well, my imagination fails me.

The proprietor of Interpreter and his friends can barely bring themselves to allude to this particular venue. As far as I'm aware, they never call it by name, and the idea that they would allow a link to something here is well beyond anything that I could conceive of.

As for informing an author of an article in Interpreter that one was going to air issues with his work here, I don't know why one would, but I'm sure that the people at Interpreter who monitor activity here will let him know.

But then, what do I know?!?
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Re: David Bokovoy Issues a Devastating Critique of the Mopologists' "Scholarship"

Post by Fence Sitter »

Benjamin McGuire wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:53 am
Whatever role Jahn's text played, Phelps had just obtained his copy in the summer of 1832,
Thanks for all that great information!

Can you tell me how you know Phelps obtained his copy in 1832?

By the way I own an 1827 2nd edition.
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Re: David Bokovoy Issues a Devastating Critique of the Mopologists' "Scholarship"

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

As an aside, didn’t Brother Thompson get a divorce while he was serving as a Mission President? I wonder how his missionaries viewed that if it was the case.

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Re: David Bokovoy Issues a Devastating Critique of the Mopologists' "Scholarship"

Post by Gabriel »

malkie wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 2:23 pm
I don't know whether to laugh or --- well, my imagination fails me.

The proprietor of Interpreter and his friends can barely bring themselves to allude to this particular venue. As far as I'm aware, they never call it by name, and the idea that they would allow a link to something here is well beyond anything that I could conceive of.

As for informing an author of an article in Interpreter that one was going to air issues with his work here, I don't know why one would, but I'm sure that the people at Interpreter who monitor activity here will let him know.

But then, what do I know?!?
My mistake. I just assumed that the Benjamin McGuire posting here is the same one who writes for Interpreter. Ben, I apologize.
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Re: David Bokovoy Issues a Devastating Critique of the Mopologists' "Scholarship"

Post by Benjamin McGuire »

Fence Sitter wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:01 pm
Benjamin McGuire wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:53 am
Whatever role Jahn's text played, Phelps had just obtained his copy in the summer of 1832,
Thanks for all that great information!

Can you tell me how you know Phelps obtained his copy in 1832?

By the way I own an 1827 2nd edition.
I went back and looked at my notes. I must have misread something when I went through them (they are several years old - the last time I really looked through this stuff was in 2013. Time flies and all that. My notes actually tell me that I believed that he had a copy of the second edition (1827 as you point out). I am not sure why I settled on that one any more.

I also found some notes that I don't remember at all. They are from when I first was dealing with the 1832 article by Phelps where he first mentions the sacred spectacles. In July of 1832, when Phelps first suggests a connection between the Nephite Interpreters and the Old Testament teraphim, he writes this (The Evening and Morning Star, Vol. 1 No. 2):

"They were even to do without the Teraphim, [Urim & Thummim, perhaps] or sacred spectacles or declarers; supposed to be the same called gods and images when Jacob fled, from Laban."

What caught my attention (according to my notes) is that Phelps calls them 'declarers'. Upton (in his translation of Jahn) doesn't use this term at all. But it does occur in a discussion of Teraphim in Henry Ainsworth's annotations on the five books of Moses (first published as a separate piece in 1616, but much more broadly distributed in his 1639 work): https://books.google.com/books?id=ki1BAAAAcAAJ On page 116, in reference to Genesis 31:19, Ainsworth writes:

"and it seemeth that idolaters consulted with their gods by them, and had oracles, Ezek. 21.21, Zach. 10.2. therefore the Chaldee and Greeke in Hos. 3.4. translate it, declarers, or manifesters, to weet, of hidden things."

The emphasis is in the original. Ainsworth is discussing the teraphim here. The "weet" at the end means 'to know' in middle English. I never followed up on this. But it may be a source (direct or indirect) for Phelps in this instance. It was especially interesting given the last part - '[to know] of hidden things.' And this of course reminds us of Mosiah 8:13,17 right?
13 Now Ammon said unto him: I can assuredly tell thee, O king, of a man that can translate the records; for he has wherewith that he can look, and translate all records that are of ancient date; and it is a gift from God. And the things are called interpreters, and no man can look in them except he be commanded, lest he should look for that he ought not and he should perish. And whosoever is commanded to look in them, the same is called seer. ... 17 But a seer can know of things which are past, and also of things which are to come, and by them shall all things be revealed, or, rather, shall secret things be made manifest, and hidden things shall come to light, and things which are not known shall be made known by them, and also things shall be made known by them which otherwise could not be known.
So while the text from 1832 by Phelps mentions the Urim and Thummim, and suggests that they are related to the spectacles (the Nephite interpreters) it seems to more strongly connect the interpreters to the idea of Teraphim, and not the Urim and Thummim directly (or perhaps Phelps was starting to speculate that the Urim and Thummim from the Old Testament were a specific sort of Teraphim). The shift to seeing the Nephite interpreters as Urim and Thummim comes by January 1833.

I never did really do a lot of follow up on this. I was working on a number of other projects at the time, and this sort of research takes a lot of time and often only rewards highly speculative results. In my mind, these connections were being drawn for two reasons. First, the Urim and Thummim were connected to a priestly breastplate. This fits the early Mormon narrative in a way that isn't drawn out here. And second, there was a strong push to reinterpret (and consequently to recast) these early Mormon narratives into a more Biblical/Old Testament framework. And in the case of turning the interpreters into a Urim and Thummim, there was an obvious success (by 1835 this gets encoded in scripture). Within the Mormon community, I think that this has also generally resulted in a long-standing misunderstanding of the use of the Urim and Thummim in ancient Israel.

Ben
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Re: David Bokovoy Issues a Devastating Critique of the Mopologists' "Scholarship"

Post by Doctor Scratch »

I see that J. Bradshaw has offered a polite response to Bokovoy:
Jeff Bradshaw wrote:Good to hear from you, David! For the record, the two reviews of David’s “Authoring the Old Testament” volume in Interpreter, by Colby Townsend and myself, though sometimes differing respectfully with David’s arguments on some matters, did not take issue with the general premises of the Documentary hypothesis. Though there are some aspects of my own review that I would correct and update if it were rewritten today, I think readers of David’s essay here may find both of these of interest. Links below.

Readers may also find the proceedings of the “Ancient Threads in the Book of Moses” conferences in 2020 ( https://interpreterfoundation.org/confe ... onference/ ) and 2021 ( https://interpreterfoundation.org/confe ... onference/ ) of interest. Videos and some preliminary papers from 2020 have been posted, and videos of the 2021 conference will be posted in the next week or two. Expanded and corrected proceedings of the conference will be published later this year.

I can’t recall at the moment any papers that explicitly called into question the general premises of the Documentary Hypothesis. If it turns out there are one or more ancient source texts behind the Book of Moses, rather than it being a purely revelatory text, those sources could well include, as David Calabro has argued in his 2021 paper, sacred texts from early Christians incorporating elements of earlier traditions. Thus, in either case, the extant text of the Book of Moses need not be traced directly to the pen of Moses.

Kind regards,
Jeff

Bradshaw, Jeffrey M. “Sorting out the sources in scripture. (Review of David E. Bokovoy, Authoring the Old Testament: Genesis-Deuteronomy).” Interpreter: A Journal of Mormon Scripture 9 (2014): 215-72. https://journal.interpreterfoundation.o ... scripture/

Townsend, Colby. “The Case for the Documentary Hypothesis, Historical Criticism, and the Latter-day Saints.” Interpreter: A Journal of Mormon Scripture 9 (2014): 209–14. https://journal.interpreterfoundation.o ... ay-saints/
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Re: David Bokovoy Issues a Devastating Critique of the Mopologists' "Scholarship"

Post by Benjamin McGuire »

Gabriel wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:25 pm
My mistake. I just assumed that the Benjamin McGuire posting here is the same one who writes for Interpreter. Ben, I apologize.
That is certainly me.

I first posted on Dr. Shades messages boards back in 2007 (long before Interpreter was a thing). I am not a frequent poster. On the old message board, I managed to hit just over 500 messages in 13 years. Dialogue is often helpful for the kinds of topics I engage in. And while some of my exchanges have not been particularly friendly (perhaps even downright antagonistic), for the most part, I believe that just about everyone is willing to have an open dialogue with me. I have also participated on occasion on the MD&D Forum. I was an early participant on the FAIR message boards (before MD&D existed). Many of these message boards are highly partisan. The closest, I think, that our communities ever had to something that was more centrist was ZLMB, where I participated a great deal (I had long running debates with Metcalfe and others back then). Those discussions really drove my interest in the process of identifying parallels and how to understand them in the context of literature and literary devices. And those discussions resulted in some of what I published. If we really want to get back into ancient history, my first taste of Mormon internet discussions occurred on COMB (the Christiantiy On-line Message Boards) on AOL. I began participating there back in 1987 - that might date me just a little bit. Living where I do, in northern Michigan, there isn't much opportunity for the sorts of intellectual discussions I like to have about Mormonism and its origins and evolution.

So my writing here certainly won't come as a surprise to anyone (at least not anyone who I have communicated with over the decades). And I have never had anyone at the Interpreter ever give me grief over it. Sometimes, these message boards are the only places I can interact with some of these internet personalities that I know. And several of them I have known for a very long time (like Kerry Shirts). In general, I am well treated in all of the forums where I participate. And usually, once I have said my piece, I end my involvement in the discussion.
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Re: David Bokovoy Issues a Devastating Critique of the Mopologists' "Scholarship"

Post by malkie »

Gabriel wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:25 pm
malkie wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 2:23 pm
I don't know whether to laugh or --- well, my imagination fails me.

The proprietor of Interpreter and his friends can barely bring themselves to allude to this particular venue. As far as I'm aware, they never call it by name, and the idea that they would allow a link to something here is well beyond anything that I could conceive of.

As for informing an author of an article in Interpreter that one was going to air issues with his work here, I don't know why one would, but I'm sure that the people at Interpreter who monitor activity here will let him know.

But then, what do I know?!?
My mistake. I just assumed that the Benjamin McGuire posting here is the same one who writes for Interpreter. Ben, I apologize.
To be clear - I have no idea whether the Benjamin McGuire posting here is the same one who writes for Interpreter. I don't see anything there by Benjamin McGuire later than 7 years ago.

Regardless, I would be astounded to see a link in Interpreter to anything posted here, or even a direct reference that would make it easy for someone to find this board.

People here link to the works of apologists without restriction - that way you can easily follow the "other side" of a discussion - but some apologists do not link to anything critical of the church. I believe that the powers that be at the Interpreter may not be quite so strict, but I don't think that they are fans of discussmormonism.com
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