healing/recovery through venting?

[_wenglund]

I would love to get back to the topic, Wade.

Are you going to give Runtu the solutions for moving forward, or not.

You've spent all of this time on the thread meandering around, claiming that you have some panacea solution that is going to "help" everyone who chose to vent upon deciding to leave the Church.

Let's hear your solutions. My guess is that you really don't have any....or that you just haven't read that far in the cognitive behavior book you've checked out for the library, and are stalling for time until you can at least pretend to be an expert.

Hi Liz,

How is it that you haven't seen the "solution" when I have been plastering it all over the board for the last week or so? Perhaps you might try looking through the lense of humility rather than with the blinders of skepticism. Then, you just might find it glaringly right before your eyes.

It may also help were you not to confuse the "solution", itself, with the application of the "solution" in cases of incredibly resistant recipients. If I am all over the place, that is not a function of the "solution", but because of the heightened resistence of the recipients. It is like trying to herd cats. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Runtu]

I would love to get back to the topic, Wade.

Are you going to give Runtu the solutions for moving forward, or not.

You've spent all of this time on the thread meandering around, claiming that you have some panacea solution that is going to "help" everyone who chose to vent upon deciding to leave the Church.

Let's hear your solutions. My guess is that you really don't have any....or that you just haven't read that far in the cognitive behavior book you've checked out for the library, and are stalling for time until you can at least pretend to be an expert.

Hi Liz,

How is it that you haven't seen the "solution" when I have been plastering it all over the board for the last week or so? Perhaps you might try looking through the lense of humility rather than with the blinders of skepticism. Then, you just might find it glaringly right before your eyes.

It may also help were you not to confuse the "solution", itself, with the application of the "solution" in cases of incredibly resistant recipients. If I am all over the place, that is not a function of the "solution", but because of the heightened resistence of the recipients. It is like trying to herd cats. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Thanks, Wade, for spelling out what you think of me.

Anyway, thought you might appreciate this from that pariah, Bob McCue, which sums up where I am in terms of anger and recovery:

From my point of view, a big part of letting go of Mormonism in a healthy way comes down to being able to accept and forgive others for doing what they do in being what they are. As we come to understand that people who have lied to us, stolen time, money and energy from us, and otherwise harmed us were acting in ways that were not only predictable, but in most cases unavoidable, it is easier to let go and move on. The same kind of understanding with regard to those who cannot understand our current beliefs and behavior is helpful. And this of course applies as well to that person to whom it is often most difficult to extend forgiveness - ourselves.

I think that was the key for me: realizing that the behavior of church members before and after I left was predictable and what they were conditioned to do. Heck, you can ask Shades and PP how I acted toward them when I was a believer. I wasn't always sweetness and light, like I am now. :-)

In Mormon terms, I've forgiven the church and its members, and I realize that much of what they did was not intentional.

I'm not particularly resistant to change and self-criticism. What I am is wary of someone I've seen repeatedly use religion and psychology as bludgeons with which to beat people. I wish I didn't have that perception of you, but there it is. Maybe it's just a cognitive distortion.

[_wenglund]

TD, Anne Rice's testimony at the end of her new book is amazing. I will have to check out the spiral staircase.

Liz, Wade doesn't have an answer for us, because he hasn't found one for himself with regards to the issues in his church. I want to go in depth with regards to the whole blacks and the priesthood thing, including quoting a book I bought from an LDS bookstore that speaks (quite horribly) on the issue. I'll be starting a new thread sometime today. Wade probably won't touch it, like he ignored the truth of my story. It's just easier to call people mental and hint at a solution rather than really engage them.

To be honest, GIRM, I don't think he has an answer either. Ironically, if he actually decides to read his own books, what is suggested in cognitive behavioral therapy is to take charge of your own actions and move forward, which is exactly what you, Runtu, and others here have done.

I'm trying to see how he resolves his supposed clinical approach with his obvious jugdemental attitude.

I don't think he can do it, but it's entertaining to see him try. ;)

I just find it interesting that I'm at a point at which my therapist has said I don't need to talk to him anymore, but Wade is interested in rehashing the stuff I was doing before I saw the therapist.

I am not sure why you would think you would need to see a therapist about your CURRENT (over the last several days) dysfunctionally blaming your Church for certain emotional problems you experienced last year. This is something I think you are entirely capable of addressing yourself--with a little assistance in how to go about doing it. Who knows, perhaps in the process you may learn some cognitive strategies that may help you from needing to see a therapist in the future.

But, since you seem very reluctant to pursue your anger issue with me, may I sugggest a book by Dr.'s Greenberger and Padesky called: "Mind Over Mood: Changing How You Feel by Changing the Way You Think

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[cacheman]

I am not sure why you would think you would need to see a therapist about your CURRENT (over the last several days) dysfunctionally blaming your Church for certain emotional problems you experienced last year. This is something I think you are entirely capable of addressing yourself--with a little assistance in how to go about doing it. Who knows, perhaps in the process you may learn some cognitive strategies that may help you from needing to see a therapist in the future.

But, since you seem very reluctant to pursue your anger issue with me, may I sugggest a book by Dr.'s Greenberger and Padesky called: "Mind Over Mood: Changing How You Feel by Changing the Way You Think

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Whoa, hold on there, partner. I don't blame my anger on the church. I've already said that I blame my anger on being frustrated and a whole host of other things. It's true that the church lied to me and took my time, talents, and energy under false pretenses, and you're quite right that I reacted with anger when I did not have to. I thought we were talking about whether venting was a good outlet for anger; it was for me. Once the anger dissipated, I was able to forgive and see that much of what happened to me was, as I said, just the way things work in the church.

EDIT: OK, I went back through all 16 pages of this thread, and here's the closest I came to "blaming" the church for my anger.

It doesn't have to be an either/or, Wade. I feel liberation and hope now, but that wasn't the initial response. Looking back, I think most of the anger came from the realization that I wasn't going to be allowed to just walk away and live my life according to that new, liberating paradigm. I got guilt trips, threats of divorce, accusations that my unbelief was just an excuse because I had some hidden sin, such as pornography or an adulterous affair. Even my marginally LDS father told me that I should just suck it up and stick with the program.

Leaving the church is not just a simple paradigm shift (have you read Kuhn, or are you just borrowing the terminology?). The key in Kuhn's position is that the original paradigm must be flexible to accommodate a shift. Mormonism is not. And it's nigh unto impossible to get out of Mormonism cleanly and easily. Not to be offensive, but Mormonism is designed so that you can't leave easily.

I reacted with anger to a lot of things, but ultimately, as I said, it was my decision to be angry, and I got past that. Earlier I mentioned that I've been able to forgive, but ultimately my response was mine alone and not their responsibility. All told, I don't think it was an unusual response, but yeah, I could have handled it better.

[_Who Knows]

I have a feeling that Tom Cruise and Wade would get along pretty well...

"You don't know the history of psychiatry. I do..."

"There is no such thing as a chemical imbalance."

[_OUT OF MY MISERY]

I have a feeling that Tom Cruise and Wade would get along pretty well...

"You don't know the history of psychiatry. I do..."

"There is no such thing as a chemical imbalance."

Oh but we are all unbalanced remember...because Wade said so...so it must be true...no doubt...


Everything WADE says is truth you know ....man I believe everything he says and posts...

Wade is my new leader......Lead me Wade...Lead me Wade

[_wenglund]

I would love to get back to the topic, Wade.

Are you going to give Runtu the solutions for moving forward, or not.

You've spent all of this time on the thread meandering around, claiming that you have some panacea solution that is going to "help" everyone who chose to vent upon deciding to leave the Church.

Let's hear your solutions. My guess is that you really don't have any....or that you just haven't read that far in the cognitive behavior book you've checked out for the library, and are stalling for time until you can at least pretend to be an expert.

Hi Liz,

How is it that you haven't seen the "solution" when I have been plastering it all over the board for the last week or so? Perhaps you might try looking through the lense of humility rather than with the blinders of skepticism. Then, you just might find it glaringly right before your eyes.

It may also help were you not to confuse the "solution", itself, with the application of the "solution" in cases of incredibly resistant recipients. If I am all over the place, that is not a function of the "solution", but because of the heightened resistence of the recipients. It is like trying to herd cats. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Thanks, Wade, for spelling out what you think of me.

Anyway, thought you might appreciate this from that pariah, Bob McCue, which sums up where I am in terms of anger and recovery:

From my point of view, a big part of letting go of Mormonism in a healthy way comes down to being able to accept and forgive others for doing what they do in being what they are. As we come to understand that people who have lied to us, stolen time, money and energy from us, and otherwise harmed us were acting in ways that were not only predictable, but in most cases unavoidable, it is easier to let go and move on. The same kind of understanding with regard to those who cannot understand our current beliefs and behavior is helpful. And this of course applies as well to that person to whom it is often most difficult to extend forgiveness - ourselves.

I think that was the key for me: realizing that the behavior of church members before and after I left was predictable and what they were conditioned to do. Heck, you can ask Shades and PP how I acted toward them when I was a believer. I wasn't always sweetness and light, like I am now. :-)

In Mormon terms, I've forgiven the church and its members, and I realize that much of what they did was not intentional.

I'm not particularly resistant to change and self-criticism. What I am is wary of someone I've seen repeatedly use religion and psychology as bludgeons with which to beat people. I wish I didn't have that perception of you, but there it is. Maybe it's just a cognitive distortion.

Like you said, thanks for spelling out how you think of me.

I used to view the false accusers and blamers of my faith, such as yourself, in much the same way you now view me (as bludgeoning and beating people). But, I came to realize that my perception was, in certain important ways, a cognitive distortion. Like you and Bob with the Church, I came to view the false accuser in a more compassionate and understanding way. However, rather than self-servingly chalking you all up stereotypically to "predictable conditioning", I came to view your actions as quite reasonable given your cognitions. But, rather than well-intendingly slipping into denial through forgiveness (though I do believe that forgivess is a wonderful healing strategy when applied properly), I chose not to ignore the cycle of hurt and anger and lose, and I have determined to extricate myself and my faith from the cycle, and hopefully extricate the false accusers as well.

Granted, from the point of view of the false accusers it may appear as though my methods are actually contributing to the cycle of hurt, rather than helping to extricate people. But, like iodine or hydrogen paroxide in an open wound, the disinfecting and cleansing forces of cognitive behavioral therapy can often sting--particularly the more resistent the recipient, but it is a proven strategy for to real healing.

I can respect, though, if you chose not to take my "medicine". That is your right. But please understand that as long as you and others publically and dysfunctionally fault YOUR emotional problems on my faith, I will continue to point out where the real fault lies (with YOU), and offer my services.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Runtu]

Like you said, thanks for spelling out how you think of me.

I used to view the false accusers and blamers of my faith, such as yourself, in much the same way you now view me (as bludgeoning and beating people). But, I came to realize that my perception was, in certain important ways, a cognitive distortion. Like you and Bob with the Church, I came to view the false accuser in a more compassionate and understanding way. However, rather than self-servingly chalking you all up stereotypically to "predictable conditioning", I came to view your actions as quite reasonable given your cognitions. But, rather than well-intendingly slipping into denial through forgiveness (though I do believe that forgivess is a wonderful healing strategy when applied properly), I chose not to ignore the cycle of hurt and anger and lose, and I have determined to extricate myself and my faith from the cycle, and hopefully extricate the false accusers as well.

Granted, from the point of view of the false accusers it may appear as though my methods are actually contributing to the cycle of hurt, rather than helping to extricate people. But, like iodine or hydrogen paroxide in an open wound, the disinfecting and cleansing forces of cognitive behavioral therapy can often sting--particularly the more resistent the recipient, but it is a proven strategy for to real healing.

I can respect, though, if you chose not to take my "medicine". That is your right. But please understand that as long as you and others publically and dysfunctionally fault YOUR emotional problems on my faith, I will continue to point out where the real fault lies (with YOU), and offer my services.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I had said what I thought of you at least two or three times earlier in the thread. Kindly point out where I have blamed my emotional problems (i.e., anger) on the church.

[_wenglund]

I am not sure why you would think you would need to see a therapist about your CURRENT (over the last several days) dysfunctionally blaming your Church for certain emotional problems you experienced last year. This is something I think you are entirely capable of addressing yourself--with a little assistance in how to go about doing it. Who knows, perhaps in the process you may learn some cognitive strategies that may help you from needing to see a therapist in the future.

But, since you seem very reluctant to pursue your anger issue with me, may I sugggest a book by Dr.'s Greenberger and Padesky called: "Mind Over Mood: Changing How You Feel by Changing the Way You Think

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Whoa, hold on there, partner. I don't blame my anger on the church. I've already said that I blame my anger on being frustrated and a whole host of other things. It's true that the church lied to me and took my time, talents, and energy under false pretenses, and you're quite right that I reacted with anger when I did not have to. I thought we were talking about whether venting was a good outlet for anger; it was for me. Once the anger dissipated, I was able to forgive and see that much of what happened to me was, as I said, just the way things work in the church.

Yes, let's do hold on "partner". The Church did not lie to you, nor did it take your time, talents, and energy under false pretenses. That is YOUR self-serving cognitive distortion of things. And, while your venting at RFM may have subsided your anger, it mearly masked the real issue--i.e. your propensity to falsely accuse others as a cover for your own personal inadequacies. That is the way YOU dysfunctionally work.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Runtu]

Yes, let's do hold on "partner". The Church did not lie to you, nor did it take your time, talents, and energy under false pretenses. That is YOUR self-serving cognitive distortion of things. And, while your venting at RFM may have subsided your anger, it mearly masked the real issue--i.e. your propensity to falsely accuse others as a cover for your own personal inadequacies. That is the way YOU dysfunctionally work.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

So, really you don't so much take exception to venting in general, as you think that any view of the church as being less than truthful is a self-serving cognitive distortion.

Interesting.