John Dehlin Stake President update 8/23/14

[_Spanner]

Conflating the word with hysteria and finding some dodgy site that spouts Freudian nonsense as proof of misogyny is a ploy worth of the slimiest mopologist.

Well, fair, it was only Wikipedia, but that seemed a little better source than just the etymology of the word. And I'm not sure what, exactly to do with this:

The history of Histrionic Personality Disorder stems from the word hysteria.

The footnote is there in the Wikipedia article for Histrionic Personality Disorder. Again, a mental-health professional would understand clearly what s/he is saying when using the term, even if in the fog of argument.

You ignore several centuries of troublesome guilt-by-association of both hysteria and histrionics with those pesky women. Actual use for almost 4000 years would seem to make it hard to dismiss.

It's the entire associational network around the word that would seem to matter, not merely its theatrical origin.

Oh vernacular, you worrisome inconvenience, you.

Hopefully someone will fix that dodgy wiki reference, I couldn't even find it. I just had a Google of the term and found lots of drama related definitions but not the one you dug up. JD was describing a behaviour. He used the word histrionics in relation to theatrical behavior. He did not call her histrionic, or say she had a personality disorder. Big difference.

As opposed to a number of posters who are quite happy to repeatedly describe JD as being intrinsically narcissistic.

Then using the one word to conduct dodgy discourse analysis and declare JD misogynistic is ridiculous. Mind-reading over the internet.

Had JD stated that he thought her behavior was borderline stalking, would you be flailing around accusing him of diagnosing her with BPD? Cripes.

[_hank rearden]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histrion ... er#History

Not sure if it's blocked for some reasons in the antipodes. Pretty damn clear. No excuse for a mental-health professional to use that word, particularly in such a charged context.

[_hank rearden]

And the reference

Blais, M.A., Hilsenroth, M. & Fowler, C. (1998). Rorschach correlates of the DSM-IV histrionic personality disorder. Journal of Personality Assessment, 70(2), 355-365

It's used three times in the section on History of the term. I can't get a PDF of it, but I'll take what's there over your protestations of my use of it until someone could show why I shouldn't. Please furnish your credentials or correcting reference(s) if you'd be so kind, and we can see what the nature is of the particular leg on which you're attempting to stand. If you can make your case, I'm happy to reconsider.

[_cwald]

overall i would say that the board had no real winners again today. i don't think it was anything like the meltdown that we saw yesterday, but there are not a lot of winners. definitely some progress. but it felt a bit like pre season football.

off the boards there is a clear winner. i agree with equality. otterson is probably shaking his head wondering how some dude with such a stupid name like mayan elephant could be doing him such a favor. they know mormonstories better than any of us. they don't need to do anything. not just because he is only a publisher. but because the erratic volatility that was on display yesterday...

Yes.

[_hank rearden]

Rockslider, I couldn't help but think of your thought-terminating dismissals upthread when I read this quote from Robert Lifton:

The language of the totalist environment is characterized by the thought-terminating cliché. The most far-reaching and complex of human problems are compressed into brief, highly reductive, definitive-sounding phrases, easily memorized and easily expressed. These become the start and finish of any ideological analysis.

[_Sister Mary Lisa]

Rockslider, I couldn't help but think of your thought-terminating dismissals upthread when I read this quote from Robert Lifton:

The language of the totalist environment is characterized by the thought-terminating cliché. The most far-reaching and complex of human problems are compressed into brief, highly reductive, definitive-sounding phrases, easily memorized and easily expressed. These become the start and finish of any ideological analysis.

THIS.

[_suniluni2]

I know there is probably some fatigue in regards to the debates over John Dehlin. Still I found some of the demands made by his stake president interesting.

An update on my discussion with the Stake President

Back to the OP, the stake president needs to take some lessons from rosebud on how to attempt to control ms with threats.

[_Mayan Elephant]

JD will be accustomed to using the word properly.

Conflating the word with hysteria and finding some dodgy site that spouts Freudian nonsense as proof of misogyny is a ploy worth of the slimiest mopologist.

oh spanner. that is darling. who is apologizing for who in this conversation?

if mormonstories meant anything other than histrionics, when he said histrionics, he could come back here and explain what he meant. hank seems to be making a different point than you are attacking. if i understand hank correctly, he is saying that any reasonable trained psychotherapist understands the word in a clinical way and also would understand how using the word would land on a woman, a group, or just any ol' human being.

you seem able to find all sorts of nuances to explain that mormonstories was either using some other definition of the word, or just doing what has been done in other worlds. that is what the sycophants do. they make excuses for bad behavior because for some reason they think the good outweighs the bad. for you, the bad may very well be outweighed. i have no reason to think otherwise.

let me see if i can help you. mormonstories insulted his critics and in at least one case said that at least one had a personality disorder. no matter what evil intent you can apply to his critics, it is still okay to admit that mormonstories did that, and it was effed up. along with using real names, that too was effed up. both are bad behaviors and good podcasts do not become bad ones if you admit to or acknowledge these bad behaviors.

admitting that a professional golfer made some bad choices and displayed some poor behavior does not make his golf ball fly into the rough. neither will telling the truth about a podcaster. it is not rosebud that was looking for a Jesus and is now crucifying him. it is the sycophants that refuse to acknowledge their own Jesus/joseph smith/warren jeffs/etc might not be all that he cracks himself up to be.

[_Mayan Elephant]

the stake president needs to take some lessons from rosebud on how to attempt to control ms with threats.

i think if the stake president had made an actual threat, or if there ever was a threat at all, mormonstories would have revealed that to the press and to the sycophants. he released his original letters to peggy fletcher stack and others. if the threats had ever gone beyond that we surely would have known.

i said this earlier about the threats. it seems awkward. to me, holding on and doing what you need to do without drawing any attention beforehand is the way to go. i actually think king had that in mind when he sent the original letter to mormonstories. he was behaving like a gentleman and taking care of business, without any idle threats.

[_suniluni2]

the stake president needs to take some lessons from rosebud on how to attempt to control ms with threats.

i think if the stake president had made an actual threat, or if there ever was a threat at all

I don't know, I guess we differ on what is and is not a threat. Here's ms's version of what the sp told him:

During this meeting he provided the following conditions for my continued membership in the church:

“Publicly renounce and apologize for the false concepts you have widely expressed regarding God, Jesus Christ, the Atonement, the restoration of the Gospel, and the Book of Mormon.
Cease providing a public forum for any person who is critical of Church doctrine.
Stop promoting groups or organizations that espouse doctrines contrary to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Resign my status as an ordained minister in another faith” (I signed up here once to be able to marry a friend, though the opportunity never materialized)

I suppose if we take him at his word, he is imposing "conditions" rather than making a threat. I don't, and interpret it as a threat, especially since he knows ms does, and will likely continue to do, these things.