Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Good enough for you, Doc?

No. How large a swath of humanity? Let’s ballpark it to a percentage rather than a numerical value.

- Doc

[Gadianton]

Not a complaint. Stating the reality. No need to take it as anything other than that.

Ah, you're not going to accept the obvious point. Here, let me quote you. I could go on all day finding similar quotes but one shall suffice:

I’m not expecting that anything he has to say would have any real impact/influence on those that are already ‘settled’ in their views of secular humanism or disbelief in the divine

Now, you go on and read that about 27 times and see if it sinks in a little.

Ceeboo is NOT a secular humanist and disbeliever in the divine. Additionally, he has a shared political ideology that includes Donald Trump, just like Jacob Hanson. So what are the chances that Jacob Hanson will convince Ceeboo that the Book of Mormon is ancient; any better than convincing me, do you think? If so, why aren't you talking to the guy about it!

I’m not expecting that the links I’ve shared in this thread are going to make a dent with everyone.

Saving yourself now? That's not what you've said before, and you've said it many times in different ways. And not just on this thread.

I'll take 2.5 out of three since I missed your faction of conservativism.

I’m not sure where this is coming from other than a place of ignorance.

Just giving you a hard time in exchange for your trolling in many cases. The serious point would be that "child of God" means different things to people of different backgrounds. You've heard it a particular way since you were a kid and you come to a place like this and announce it as if it would be full of wonderous meaning for everyone. In Mormonism, God is a fully functioning man who -- ya know -- and billions of spirit children were produced. Most people don't believe that. And even figuratively, it all depends on the figurative meaning you're trying to convey. It may sound good to some, to others it may sound weird or inappropriate for whatever reason. When you hear "child of God" in this context, does it trigger the same emotions:

https://www.amazon.com/Born-into-Childr ... 000756032X

If someone knocks on your door announcing they represent the "Children of God" you're going to think it sounds damn weird. Your first reaction isn't going to be that you have this huge thing in common, even if you superficially express that in a conversation with the person as you try to figure them out. The words are a particular expression that are meaningful in the right context to you exactly because of your upbringing.

[ceeboo]

Given the last few posts to me, I might actually take the time and effort to post a detailed answer to my view of these questions. For now, I will attempt another short reply in hopes that it will at least let people know what my view is.

Table setting: (My view - you need not agree)

Sin is the disobedience of our Creator/God - Sin entered the world with Adam and Eve - We are all broken sinners who fall short of the Glory of God -The wages of sin is death - Death is now what we all face.

Romans 6:23
“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

When was the first blood sacrifice for the atoning of sin? Genesis 3:21
New International Version
21 The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them.

Why blood? Life is in the blood

Leviticus 17:11
New International Version
For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.

This sacrificial system went on during the entire Old Testament - But it was just a covering of sin and had to be redone each year (Like many things in the Old Testament - this pointed to the ultimate and final sacrifice where God provided his own Lamb - The Lamb of God who would take away (remove entirely and completely - not temporarily cover) the sins of any/all past/present/future. King Jesus.

Accepting/believing in Jesus - Who He is - What he has done - is the path that was provided for any/all men/women to be made right with God = Becoming a child of God.

The New Testament makes it clear that believing in Jesus is the only way that anyone can have eternal life (a.k.a. saved) A few examples:

Acts 4:12
New International Version
12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

John 14:6
New International Version
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

MG's question - What about the people before the time of Jesus?

Genesis 15:6
New International Version
6 Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

Abraham was saved the same way anyone is - through Jesus - Even though Jesus had not died, chronologically yet, it was His death that makes man right with God.

Past/present/future - the only way people are saved is through Jesus.

What is required for salvation (eternal life/reunited with our Creator) - Believing in Jesus.

[I Have Questions]

What is required for salvation (eternal life/reunited with our Creator) - Believing in Jesus.

Whose version of Jesus?

[ceeboo]

What is required for salvation (eternal life/reunited with our Creator) - Believing in Jesus.

Whose version of Jesus?

You can decide that for yourself - For me, I use the Jesus that can be found in the collection of books that span over 1500 years, that were written by dozens of authors, on separate continents, in different languages - also known as the Old Testament and New Testament - Scripture.

[I Have Questions]

Whose version of Jesus?

You can decide that for yourself - For me, I use the Jesus that can be found in the collection of books that span over 1500 years, that were written by dozens of authors, on separate continents, in different languages - also known as the Old Testament and New Testament - Scripture.

So Mormon Jesus is fine?

[ceeboo]

You can decide that for yourself - For me, I use the Jesus that can be found in the collection of books that span over 1500 years, that were written by dozens of authors, on separate continents, in different languages - also known as the Old Testament and New Testament - Scripture.

So Mormon Jesus is fine?

IHAQ, I can't do all the work for you. If you are interested in truth (some people are not) - You will have to look into the Mormon Jesus claim - The Islam Jesus claim - The JW Jesus claim - And any other place that borrows/claims the name of Jesus and draw your own conclusions.

for what it's worth, you were one of the reasons I posted my last post (because I thought you were genuinely asking what my view was when you asked - Not that I assumed you would agree, but that I thought you were sincerely asking) - I am beginning to doubt that were actually asking. So, If I don't take the time and effort to reply to you in the future, you will know why.

[Valo]

A whole page of useless ad hominems and not a single relevant response. Looks like the local bullies are in full force here!

I don't think you know what an "ad hominem" [Latin: against the man] argument is.

If I say: "MG's marriage is on the rocks, and that's why he can't think straight", then I'm attacking MG, not his evidence or his reasoning. That is irrelevant to the truth or otherwise of his claims. That is "ad hominem".

If I say "MG's conclusions are unreliable, since he is basing them on A.I. generated answers, and he does not adequately allow for the way these are generated", then I am attacking MG's evidence and reasoning, which is perfectly legitimate in the context of this discussion. That is not "ad hominem".

Haha, another ad hominem. Imagine that.

[MG 2.0]

Accepting/believing in Jesus - Who He is - What he has done - is the path that was provided for any/all men/women to be made right with God = Becoming a child of God.

I agree that there is no other way by which mankind can be saved other than through Him who was slain on the cross and redeemed us through His blood. The Garden of Gethsemane and the cross were the culmination of a life in which Jesus taught and set by example the way back to the kingdom of God. The Atonement completed his earthly mission.

I think where we my see things differently is the full ‘effect’ of the Atonement. I think that Jesus’s work was for everyone. Including those that never have the opportunity to accept and live according to his commandments while living in the flesh. As Doc is alluding to that is a LOT of people. I would have a hard time believing that a God who loves ALL his children would not provide a way by which they can all be saved in a kingdom of glory.

John 14:2-4
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

MG's question - What about the people before the time of Jesus?

Genesis 15:6
New International Version
6 Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

Abraham was saved the same way anyone is - through Jesus - Even though Jesus had not died, chronologically yet, it was His death that makes man right with God.

Past/present/future - the only way people are saved is through Jesus.

If the Atonement of Christ is universal, then that makes sense.

What is required for salvation (eternal life/reunited with our Creator) - Believing in Jesus.

Where I’m having a difficult time with your theology is trying to understand how you think ALL of God’s children (creations) are going to have the opportunity to receive salvation. Unless everyone has this opportunity it seems as though God is a partial God and is unable to reach and save all his children. I think that ALL flesh (mankind) is capable of progress and receiving a glory that God has in store for everyone.

That’s why I see a Muslim as my brother. A communist Chinese as my brother. Etc.

It doesn’t matter who has or who hasn’t heard the ‘Good Word’ in this life. All will have the opportunity if not here, then in the life to come.

Any form of Calvinism in which a select few ‘children of God’ are saved while others are essentially damned to hell fire, so to speak, is not a God I can worship.

The God I worship is a God of universality. In the last day every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ. We will then each receive that portion that we were/are willing to receive.

The exception will be those that come out in open rebellion against God knowing full well what they are doing after having had an undeniable witness/understanding through the Holy Spirit. A full rejection of God and his plan for humanities’ progression in the eternities.

That will be a relative few.

What I appreciate about the theology of the LDS church is that it is much larger in scope than much of traditional/creedal Christianity.

Nonetheless, we as Latter Day Saints see our Christian brothers and sisters as fellow travelers/disciples along the road of faith in a living God and belief in His Son Jesus Christ.

The Book of Mormon has MUCH to say on this topic along with the Holy Bible.

Truth is, we could go the rounds on this for a long time. I personally don’t want to take the time necessary to debate differences in doctrinal belief on this thread. I will simply say that I can appreciate the fact that you have your beliefs, grounded in your Biblical interpretations, that give you a ‘life in Christ’. I consider you a brother in Christ.

For IHAQ and others, both ceeboo and myself readily acknowledge that you see any form of religious belief to be, in the main, hocus pocus. So we can probably leave it at that for now. Some of the responses to ceeboo have been along the line of ‘what in the heck are you even talking about’.

I too have a difficult time understanding what I believe to be a limited and restricted view of God and Jesus. But I respect the fact that his life path is centered on Christ and His goodness.

Arguing about doctrinal positions and whether or not they ought to be argued at all (disbelief in God, so it’s a waste of time) is really not all that productive. We can state our beliefs, or non beliefs, and get on with it…look at each other as brothers and sisters that have much more in common than that which divides us.

Again, my purpose in this thread is to put forth what I believe to be useful information and testimony for those that are seekers and looking to learn more about the beliefs and doctrines of the CofJCofLDS.

And that’s not for everyone. I get that. But it might be for someone.

Regards,
MG

[ceeboo]

Again, my purpose in this thread is to put forth what I believe to be useful information and testimony for those that are seekers and looking to learn more about the beliefs and doctrines of the CofJCofLDS.

Understood.

Apologies for my part in taking the thread off course. I will do my best to resist any further temptation.