It's very simple MG.
- stick to the board rules
- treat female posters as respectfully as you treat male posters
- stop behaving like you believe you're better than everyone else
- and don't preach what you don't practice
Fair enough?
Last edited by I Have Questions on Tue Dec 16, 2025 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Premise 1. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Premise 2. The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is eyewitness testimony.
Conclusion. Therefore, the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is notoriously unreliable.
It might also be worth considering whether the satirical funky word analyses are describing something about how your conversation is coming across, rather than just being dismissed as mischaracterization.
It might also be worth considering whether the satirical funky word analyses are describing something about how your conversation is coming across, rather than just being dismissed as mischaracterization.
That would take some self reflection and humility on MG's part. I'm not convinced he has those tools in his tool belt. But I'll be delighted for him to prove me wrong.
Premise 1. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Premise 2. The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is eyewitness testimony.
Conclusion. Therefore, the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is notoriously unreliable.
Mormon talk has a deep habit of blaming doubt or questions on bad desires bad faith. It is a deeply offensive habit and one that MG sometimes repeats creating a good deal of animosity toward himself.
I think the virus is in the room. (looking through the window).
MG, please let’s please address this. I think Huck has made a good point. I’m genuinely interested in your opinion.
Many who have abandoned Church affiliation believe that they’ve often heard Church authorities blame their defections on a desire to sin, laziness, or just being trivially offended. Understandably, ex-Mormons take umbrage at this. Are they wrong? Are they perceiving something that isn’t really happening?
Many on this board also have the impression that you sometimes engage in this same behavior. Again, are they wrong?
Truthfully, I think we would have to sit in a circle in a room and have a transactional face to face discussion on this rather sensitive topic. Want to arrange that? I’ll show up if it isn’t too far away. Please, after Christmas.
I REALLY don’t know any of you people. The funny thing is, you somehow think you know me so well…
Let me know where and when. I’ll bring ice cream if you’ll bring the toppings. Know alcohol or mind altering drugs. Let’s keep it real.
Real life group dynamics aren’t even closely aligned with the realities of a board like this one. Man, what would it be like to sit down with some of you with a bowl of ice cream in hand.
Regards,
MG
Meeting face-to-face is a whole different topic. While that might be nice, it’s not relevant in this particular case.
My two questions are pretty straightforward. You seem to be dodging them.
Why no answer to either me or Huck (a guy who consistently stands up for you)?
Instead of answering, mg re-writes events into an utterly implausible interpretation. He can't answer the questions, in my opinion, because trolling is, and remains, his main motivation.
In an interesting maneuver, we see the specimen pulling off a rare hat trick of: 1) Stating the topic at hand is “rather sensitive,” while nearly simultaneously dismissing the entire forum as an echo chamber; 2) Declaring his out-of-the-box thinking must be “dovetailed with reality”; and 3) Repeatedly sharing how he doesn’t like being the focus—while making the entire thread about him.
Summary Conclusion: Disagreement is a disease, critique is crawling, and good faith is something that must be publicly “recognized” by a majority. Withdrawal is the board’s loss, possibly because ice cream will be withheld? That part is unclear.
Note to other potential investigators: Converting to Mormonism will require, as demonstrated by the specimen believer, comfort with absurd declarations of persecution if met with critique, announcement of retreats as a consequence of…something, and demands to be taken seriously while rejecting terms on which seriousness is earned.
Note to other potential investigators: Converting to Mormonism will require, as demonstrated by the specimen believer, comfort with absurd declarations of persecution if met with critique, announcement of retreats as a consequence of…something, and demands to be taken seriously while rejecting terms on which seriousness is earned.
Moreover, you will be expected to eventually enter a Mormon temple and make a covenant to make yourself a slave to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints™ (which means to the leaders, of course.) If anyone wants to do that, be my guest, but transparency and full disclosure should be present during the initial brainwashing phase, in all fairness.
Note to other potential investigators: Converting to Mormonism will require, as demonstrated by the specimen believer, comfort with absurd declarations of persecution if met with critique, announcement of retreats as a consequence of…something, and demands to be taken seriously while rejecting terms on which seriousness is earned.
Moreover, you will be expected to eventually enter a Mormon temple and make a covenant to make yourself a slave to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints™ (which means to the leaders, of course.) If anyone wants to do that, be my guest, but transparency and full disclosure should be present during the initial brainwashing phase, in all fairness.
It’s worth noting that temple participants are forced into agreeing to honour the covenants before hearing and seeing what those covenants are. That’s like signing a hire purchase agreement for a car you haven’t seen and whose price you don’t yet know.
Premise 1. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Premise 2. The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is eyewitness testimony.
Conclusion. Therefore, the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is notoriously unreliable.
Note to other potential investigators: Converting to Mormonism will require, as demonstrated by the specimen believer, comfort with absurd declarations of persecution if met with critique, announcement of retreats as a consequence of…something, and demands to be taken seriously while rejecting terms on which seriousness is earned.
Moreover, you will be expected to eventually enter a Mormon temple and make a covenant to make yourself a slave to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints™ (which means to the leaders, of course.) If anyone wants to do that, be my guest, but transparency and full disclosure should be present during the initial brainwashing phase, in all fairness.
I think you make a good point. For a number of years now I think local wards throughout the church have done a better job at temple preparation. For one thing, people generally have more questions than they may have had in the past. And as Elder Ballard said, we need to interact with and entertain questions that people have rather than avoid them. This may be evident in the more open nature of temple preparation. It may vary, obviously, from ward to ward and area to area and person to person (those teaching the class and ward leadership).
Things have changed dramatically from the time I first attended the temple in the early seventies. I would have appreciated fuller disclosure and opportunities at the ward level to more fully engage in the nuts and bolts of what I was about to do. I'm sure many in my generation feel/felt the same way.
As with everything else on this planet and in organizations that are inhabited by humans, we will see evolutionary/incremental change. In this respect (temple preparation) things have changed for the better as it also has in other areas/issues which could be brought up.
Moreover, you will be expected to eventually enter a Mormon temple and make a covenant to make yourself a slave to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints™ (which means to the leaders, of course.) If anyone wants to do that, be my guest, but transparency and full disclosure should be present during the initial brainwashing phase, in all fairness.
I think you make a good point. For a number of years now I think local wards throughout the church have done a better job at temple preparation. For one thing, people generally have more questions than they may have had in the past. And as Elder Ballard said, we need to interact with and entertain questions that people have rather than avoid them. This may be evident in the more open nature of temple preparation. It may vary, obviously, from ward to ward and area to area and person to person (those teaching the class and ward leadership).
Things have changed dramatically from the time I first attended the temple in the early seventies. I would have appreciated fuller disclosure and opportunities at the ward level to more fully engage in the nuts and bolts of what I was about to do. I'm sure many in my generation feel/felt the same way.
As with everything else on this planet and in organizations that are inhabited by humans, we will see evolutionary/incremental change. In this respect (temple preparation) things have changed for the better as it also has in other areas/issues which could be brought up.
Regards,
MG
But until the preparation includes the clear warning that the initiates will essentially be vowing to become slaves to the church leaders, it will simply not be fair. How many people have gone through the endowment - even with the caveat at the beginning of the session that they are free to bail out (who ever does that?) only to be shocked and freaked out about the whole thing. Covenants are perfectly okay with me. Sell yourself into slavery for all I care, but the contextual psychological pressure to continue without the benefit of full disclosure is a wicked affair. It's abuse clear and simple. I can hardly imagine the True Jesus (if he exists) would go along with such a set up.
I think you make a good point. For a number of years now I think local wards throughout the church have done a better job at temple preparation. For one thing, people generally have more questions than they may have had in the past. And as Elder Ballard said, we need to interact with and entertain questions that people have rather than avoid them. This may be evident in the more open nature of temple preparation. It may vary, obviously, from ward to ward and area to area and person to person (those teaching the class and ward leadership).
Things have changed dramatically from the time I first attended the temple in the early seventies. I would have appreciated fuller disclosure and opportunities at the ward level to more fully engage in the nuts and bolts of what I was about to do. I'm sure many in my generation feel/felt the same way.
As with everything else on this planet and in organizations that are inhabited by humans, we will see evolutionary/incremental change. In this respect (temple preparation) things have changed for the better as it also has in other areas/issues which could be brought up.
Regards,
MG
But until the preparation includes the clear warning that the initiates will essentially be vowing to become slaves to the church leaders, it will simply not be fair. How many people have gone through the endowment - even with the caveat at the beginning of the session that they are free to bail out (who ever does that?) only to be shocked and freaked out about the whole thing. Covenants are perfectly okay with me. Sell yourself into slavery for all I care, but the contextual psychological pressure to continue without the benefit of full disclosure is a wicked affair. It's abuse clear and simple. I can hardly imagine the True Jesus (if he exists) would go along with such a set up.
I suppose we differ on the point of becoming "slaves" to church leaders. I think that when people are preparing to go to the temple they are doing so in order to make covenants with God and learn to follow the Savior. It makes a difference, between you and I, as to what the focus is in all of this.
I won't argue with you about your beliefs that the temple is a 'slave making' warehouse of sorts. If you want to believe that, that is your prerogative.
As it is, the people I know that regularly attend the temple do so in order to grow closer to God, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus Christ. And to serve those that have gone before.
