Manetho wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 9:01 pm
…my more fundamental problem with arguments about an early date for the New Testament texts is that they don't prove the grandiose claims about Jesus that we find in the New Testament are true. The early centuries of the Roman Empire abounded with stories of miracle-working figures of one kind or another, and
those stories surged in popularity in the exact period when the gospels started to circulate. The
earliest surviving version of the gospel story makes Jesus look not all that different from other wonder-workers and apocalyptic preachers from that era who were claimed by their followers to have some kind of special connection to divinity. Because Christianity is enormously important today and the followings of those other figures died out nearly 2,000 years ago, we read the texts about Jesus in isolation without being aware of the other figures who were characterized in similar terms.
Hi Manetho. Pre-Christ and post-Christ did any of the other belief systems and/or men that were worshipped as divinity or having connections with divinity make claims to this man or divinity being associated with or related to a “Father in Heaven?”
I could be mistaken but it seems as though Jesus may have been the first one to come along to make that claim.
I know folks here are wary of A.I. as am I (I’ve had incorrect and/or hallucinatory answers from inquiries), but here is some information retrieved in regards to this question I am asking you:
Inquiry: What does it mean to say that we are all children of a common father in heaven?
In the context of Mormonism, the phrase "we are all children of a common Father in Heaven" refers to the belief that God is the literal father of our spirits. This doctrine is often referred to as the "divine parentage" or "premortal existence."
According to Mormon theology, before we were born on Earth, we lived with God as his spirit children in a pre-mortal existence. During this time, we were taught and prepared for our earthly lives. As part of God's plan for us, we were sent to Earth to gain physical bodies, experience mortality, and learn and grow through our experiences.
The belief that we are all children of God emphasizes the idea that all people are connected through their shared spiritual heritage and that we are all part of God's family. This belief is meant to promote unity, compassion, and understanding among people, as we are all seen as brothers and sisters in a larger spiritual sense.
Inquiry: Are Mormons the only ones that believe this?
While the specific doctrine of premortal existence and divine parentage is unique to Mormonism, the broader idea that humans are children of God or connected through a shared spiritual heritage is present in many other faiths and belief systems.
For example:
1. Christianity: Many Christians believe that God is the father of all humanity and that we are created in his image. This idea is present in the Bible and is central to many Christian teachings.
2. Islam: Muslims believe that all humans are created by Allah and are part of the larger Muslim community, or Ummah.
3. Judaism: The Torah teaches that all people are descended from Adam and Eve, the first humans created by God.
4. Hinduism: Hindus believe that all beings are manifestations of the divine and are connected through their shared spiritual essence, or Atman.
While these faiths may not share the specific details of the Mormon belief in premortal existence, they all emphasize the idea that humans are connected through a shared spiritual heritage and relationship with the divine.
Inquiry: Besides Jesus Christ, what other religions or belief systems at the time of Jesus Christ believed in a God that was literally our father in heaven.
At the time of Jesus Christ, there were several religious and philosophical belief systems that held some version of the belief that humans were descended from or connected to the divine. Here are a few examples:
1. Zoroastrianism: This Persian religion, which predates Christianity, taught that humans were created by Ahura Mazda, the supreme god, and that people were meant to aid him in his battle against evil.
2. Gnosticism: Gnosticism was a diverse and complex belief system that emerged in the first few centuries after Jesus' life. Many Gnostic teachings emphasized the idea of a "divine spark" within each person, connecting them to the spiritual realm.
3. Neoplatonism: This philosophical movement, which developed in the 3rd century AD, taught that humans had a divine soul that was connected to the ultimate source of all being, known as the One.
4. Hermeticism: This esoteric belief system, which emerged in the Hellenistic period, taught that humans were part of a larger spiritual reality and could achieve enlightenment through knowledge and understanding of the divine.
Inquiry: What about in the one or 200 years before Before Christ and within the first 100 years after Christ
During the period you mentioned, there were several belief systems that included ideas about a divine connection between humans and the divine:
1. Stoicism: This philosophical school of thought, which emerged in Greece around 300 BCE, taught that humans were connected to the divine Logos, or reason, and that this connection could be cultivated through virtuous living.
2. Essenes: This Jewish sect, which existed during the time of Jesus, emphasized the idea of a spiritual brotherhood and believed that they were chosen by God to lead a pure and righteous life.
3. Mystery Cults: These religious groups, which were popular throughout the Mediterranean world during the Hellenistic and Roman periods, often emphasized the idea of union with a divine figure, such as Dionysus or Isis.
4. Pythagoreanism: This philosophical movement, which emerged in Greece around 500 BCE, taught that humans had a divine soul that was connected to the larger harmony and order of the universe.
These belief systems, along with others that emerged during this period, all shared some version of the idea that humans were connected to the divine and could cultivate that connection through various spiritual practices or ways of living.
Inquiry: But were any of these gods you’ve referred to in this conversation actually worshipped as a father in heaven in who’s image we are created?
While some of the belief systems I mentioned did emphasize a connection between humans and the divine, the specific idea of a "Father in Heaven" who created humans in his image is most closely associated with monotheistic religions like Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
In ancient Greek and Roman religion, for example, the gods were often seen as human-like beings with specific roles or areas of influence, but they were not necessarily viewed as creators or father figures in the same way that the God of the Abrahamic religions is. Similarly, many of the mystery cults emphasized union with a divine figure, but these figures were often understood as archetypes or personifications of natural forces, rather than as a personal creator or father.
That being said, some of the philosophical movements of the time, such as Stoicism and Pythagoreanism, did emphasize the idea of a divine Logos or rational order that was present in all things, including humans. However, this concept was not necessarily understood in the same way as the "Father in Heaven" of the Abrahamic religions.
Inquiry: Did the teachings of Jesus differ from these other belief systems in that he taught of a father in heaven?
Yes, the teachings of Jesus about God as a "Father in Heaven" were indeed distinct from many of the other belief systems that were present in the ancient Mediterranean world. While some of these systems emphasized a connection between humans and the divine, the specific idea of a personal, loving, and compassionate God who created humans in his image was a unique and powerful aspect of Jesus' message.
In the Gospels, Jesus frequently refers to God as his "Father" and teaches his followers to pray to God as "Our Father in Heaven." He emphasizes the idea that God is a personal and loving creator who cares deeply about his children and desires a relationship with them.
This emphasis on a personal, loving God was in contrast to many of the other belief systems of the time, which often emphasized a more impersonal or detached relationship between humans and the divine. Jesus' teachings about a Father in Heaven were a key aspect of his message and helped to distinguish his teachings from other religious and philosophical movements of the time.
Inquiry: Were these teachings known and received in the very first years of Christianity and at the time Jesus taught his disciples?
Yes, the teachings of Jesus about God as a loving and personal Father in Heaven were present from the very beginning of Christianity and were central to the message that Jesus shared with his disciples. In fact, the earliest written records of Jesus' life and teachings, the Gospels, contain numerous references to God as a loving and compassionate Father.
For example, in the Sermon on the Mount, which is recorded in the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus teaches his followers to pray to God as "Our Father in Heaven" and emphasizes the importance of forgiveness and love as central aspects of God's character. Similarly, in the Gospel of John, Jesus frequently refers to God as his Father and emphasizes the intimate relationship between himself and the Father.
It's worth noting that the concept of God as a Father in Heaven was not entirely new to Judaism at the time of Jesus, as there are references to God as a father figure in the Hebrew scriptures. However, Jesus' emphasis on God's personal and loving nature was a distinctive aspect of his teachings and helped to shape the development of early Christianity.
Might we consider that Jesus was a ‘one off’ in relation to all the other gods and goddesses and divine ‘man gods’ and miracle workers during, before, and after Christ walked the earth?
He made the claim of being related and/or associated with his “Father in Heaven”. And He taught that we should worship and obey this same Father God.
Regards,
MG
