healing/recovery through venting?

[Gadianton]

No. I wouldn't think that was a cognitive distortion. It would only be a cognitive distortion were she to believe he was lying and deceiving her about loving her.

Ok, so if he was lying about it, then it wouldn't be cognitive distortion. Right?

That's correct.

But, for him to be lying about it, he could not have been genuine and sincere in the belief that he did love her. Right? In other words, one cannot be lying about something they genuinely and sincerely believe is true. Either he believe he doesn't love her but and is lying by saying he does, or he sincerely and genuinely believes he does love her, and he wouldn't be lying to say that he does.

No and no. No, I would not consider it a cognitive distortion for people to declare their belief in the verity of the gospel of Christ. No, it is not the opposite of what I am suggesting is a cognitive distortion. The opposite would be for someone to declare their personal belief that the Church is false. I would not consider that a congnitive distortion--at least not the one I am conserned about.

What? That doesn't even make sense.

Perhaps not to you. But it makes perfect sense to me. The opposite of claiming something is true, is to claim something is false. I really don't see what doesn't make sense about that. My not thinking it a cognitive distortion either way doesn't seem insensable to me either.

What I am suggesting is a cognitive distortion is your thinking the faithful members and leaders, who genuienly believe the Church is true, are lying and decieving about the what the Church claims. The opposite of this would be for a member of the Church to claim you, in spite of your genuine and sincere belief that the Church is false, are lying and deceiving people because the members think what you believe is false. In either case it is not a matter or lying and deceit, but simply a difference of opinion. It is a cognitive distortion to consider gunuine and sincere beliefs as lying and deceit. Did you get it that time?

So anytime someone thinks someone is lying about what a person professes is a sincere belief, that's cognitive distortion? So if you think OJ really did commit the murder - is that cognitive distortion?

Since you didn't directly answer my question, but turned it back on me. Let me return the favor by turning it back on you. In spite of your genuine and sincere belief that the Church is not true, is it a cognitive distortion for members of the Church to believe you are lying and deceiving about the Church, since they view as false what you believe about the Church?

Anyways, I don't think anyone here has accused the leaders of the church about lying about their beliefs (well, that's not even an issue for me). I could care less if Joseph Smith really was sincere in his belief that he was a prophet. Actions speak louder than words. Some people believe in the flying spaghetti monster. I think they're lying. Do you? Is that cognitive distortion?

Who or what, then, do you or Runtu believe are lying and deceiving about what the Church claims?

And, no, I don't think someone who genuinely and sincerely believes in the flying spaghetti monster is lying. I may think he may be imaginative and perhaps even delusional, but not lying and decieving. However, I do think it would be a cognitive distortion to believe those hypothetical people are lying.

Well, at least when it comes to being WRONG, you are consistent. The fact is, I could believe the Church is entirely false, and still think it a cognitive distortion for you to call genuine and sincere believers as liars and deceivers regarding their genuine and sincere beliefs.

Got it. Anytime someone thinks someone is lying, that's cognitive distortion. Whatever.

Nope, you didn't get it (see what I mean by consistent). You completely ignored the key qualifier--i.e. "genuine and sincere belief". By definition, for someone or something to be guilty of lying and deceit, it must of necessity be deliberate and intentional. In other words, someone or something would have to believe what they are saying is untrue and false, and yet claim it is true. That is just the opposite from people, such as members and leaders of the Church, or faithful adherents to the flying spaghetti monster, who believe that what they are sayng is true, are doing. And, by definition, it is a congnitive distortion to consider the Church as lying and deceitful about what the Church claims to be, when the Church firmly believes the claims to be true.

Did you finally get it that time?

But, don't take my word for it. There are numerous people in the Church who don't believe the Church is lying about what it claims, and there are numerous people who have left the Church who also don't believe the Church is lying and deceiving. There are a relitive few, like you, who do. Why do you suppose that is?

Now you're just talking out of your ass. Please show some references before saying this a third time (while ignoring the call for references).[/quote]

As confirmation for my first claim (about people in the Church), if the convert baptism rate is insufficient, and the activity rate doesn't work for you, please attend as many fast and testimony meetings as you wish, and see if there isn't ample witness to the verity of the Church (which the reasonable minded will correctly interpret as an indication that these numerous people believe the Church is telling the truth). As for confirmation of my second claim (about those who have left the Church), there are no statistics that I can point you to. My perception, like your own, is inductively reasoned based on extensive personal experiences and observations (anecdotal). Relatively few of the former members of the Church that I am personally aware of, view the Church as lying and deceiving. They simply either don't believe any longer, or have found a different belief. Take that or leave it, it doesn't much matter to me. But, please don't mis my point. The vast majority of people associated with the Church do not feel a need to publically vent and grieve because of the Church. Why do you suppose that is?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_wenglund]

Try as I do, I think I am getting more confused with each page of this thread.

:-) Let me try this...

Wade, if ten people all believe the church is not true, they all believe there were deceived, they all believe they wasted a lot of time and money for the church, yet they react differently (some vent, some cry, some repress, some shout for joy, some scream, some get depressed, others get angry, some let it all go), what (to your way of thinking) are the cognitive distortions that create the behavior of those who yell or vent or post on RFM?~dancer~

I bolded in your statement above what I believe to be a cognitive distortion that may or may not lead to what I consider dysfunctional "venting" and "grief" at places like RFM and elsewhere.

There are other cognitive distortions that may also cause the dysfunctional "venting" and "grieving" as well, but this is the one I am focusing on for the moment.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Yoda]

OK, Wade...so this whole thread was your way of saying that everyone who no longer believes in the Church is wrong, and that they all suffer from cognitive distortion.

The only way for them to resolve or fix the cognitive distortion is to go back to Church.

See how simple that is, Wade? It took me two paragraphs. It took you 18 pages.

The applause you just got from Beastie may reasonably give you clear indication that you couldn't have misunderstood me any more wrong than you have.

Let me try one more time to set this repeated, nearly 180 degree to the opposite, misperception straight. I have explicitely stated that my concern isn't about whether people believe the Church is true or not (believing it is false is a cognitive distortion that I have little or no interest in pursuing), nor is it getting people back to Church.

Here, let me highlight it this time so none of you will hopefully mis it: "Let me try one more time to set this repeated misperception straight. I have explicitely stated that my concern isn't about whether people believe the Church is true or not (believing it is false is a cognitive distortion that I have little or no interest in pursuing), nor is it getting people back to Church."

Did you all get it that time, or do I need to increase the font size? (Note, liz, that was a single paragraph)

Rather, the cognitive distortions that I am speaking to are those cognitions that cause the atypical, dysfunctional emotional reactions towards the Church--i.e. the relatively rare kinds of victimological "venting" and "grieving" (anger, hatred, gossip, backbiting, profanations, mockery of the sacred, etc.) like what I see at RFM and on other discussion boards like this. In short, it is those kinds of cognitive distortion that may make one vulnerable to, or fallen prey to, bigotry against the restored gospel of Christ, not PRINCIPLY unlike the congnitive distortions underlaying anti-Semitism. (Note again, liz, that this is a single paragraph)

Is that clear? Or, do I need to repeat it in bold and increase the font size as well?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

OK...so if I understand you correctly, you're saying that it is wrong for someone who feels victimized in the case of the Church, to publicy act out as a victim by venting or grieving on RfM or a website like this one in a mocking, angry manner. That's fair. I still think you could have worded this much more succinctly in your OP, but at least now we're getting down to the actual focus of your point, which, I think most here will agree, has been very confusing. Thank you for clearing that up.

[_wenglund]

Let me see if I can paraphrase your view: If a prophet is a prophet, everything else is irrelevant. It does not matter if that prophet lies about his sexual escapades, or if he is a criminal, because none of this changes his status as a prophet, which he did not lie about. Granted, he lied about other things, and was quite a deceptive person more generally, but anyone who is angry about the lies he told is experiencing a cognitive distortion due to the fact that he never lied about being a prophet?

Did I get that right?

No, as expected, you didn't. Since you seem incapable of understanding this from the point of view of a prophet. Let me come at this from the point of view on a disbeliever. Let's say that Mr. S claims to be credetialed academic. If Mr. S has decieved people about who he really is--let say he has claimed that his real name is the screen name he uses when posting on internet message boards. And, suppose that when he is challenged to verify who he really is and give some evidence that he is a credetialed academic, but declines the requests and says that people should judge him on the merits of what he says. And suppose that people have judged him on those merits, and found his claim to being a credentialed academic to be seriously wanting, and they don't believe him. Then, would it be congnitively accurate to, on the basis of the percieved deception about his name, and their belief that Mr. S is not true, consider Mr. S to be a lier and a deceiver in terms of his academic credentials?

Did you get it that time?

If that doesn't compute (or in other word if your "reciprocity" got in the way), then lets try this: If you are sincere in your belief that the claims about the Church are false, would the members be cognitively correct to say you are lying and deceiving since they view your beliefs about the Church to be false?

If not, and were you to have ever lied or decieved in your life about things other than your genuine and sincere belief in the Church, whether once, or several times, or quite often, would members of the Church be cognitively correct to claim you are lying and deceiving about you belief that the Church is false?

Has it finally reached cognition?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_harmony]

Try as I do, I think I am getting more confused with each page of this thread.

:-) Let me try this...

Wade, if ten people all believe the church is not true, they all believe there were deceived, they all believe they wasted a lot of time and money for the church, yet they react differently (some vent, some cry, some repress, some shout for joy, some scream, some get depressed, others get angry, some let it all go), what (to your way of thinking) are the cognitive distortions that create the behavior of those who yell or vent or post on RFM?~dancer~

I bolded in your statement above what I believe to be a cognitive distortion that may or may not lead to what I consider dysfunctional "venting" and "grief" at places like RFM and elsewhere.

There are other cognitive distortions that may also cause the dysfunctional "venting" and "grieving" as well, but this is the one I am focusing on for the moment.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

You believe that it's a cognitive distortion if they all ten believe they were deceived? You are now in charge of what is healthy to believe and what is not (assuming that you believe it's unhealthy to have cognitive distortions)? You feel qualified to state that these 10 people, all of whom you do not know and never have spoken with face to face, are all suffering from the same unhealthy cognitive distortion, simply because they vent and grieve at a place like RfM?

[_Runtu]

Try as I do, I think I am getting more confused with each page of this thread.

:-) Let me try this...

Wade, if ten people all believe the church is not true, they all believe there were deceived, they all believe they wasted a lot of time and money for the church, yet they react differently (some vent, some cry, some repress, some shout for joy, some scream, some get depressed, others get angry, some let it all go), what (to your way of thinking) are the cognitive distortions that create the behavior of those who yell or vent or post on RFM?~dancer~

I bolded in your statement above what I believe to be a cognitive distortion that may or may not lead to what I consider dysfunctional "venting" and "grief" at places like RFM and elsewhere.

There are other cognitive distortions that may also cause the dysfunctional "venting" and "grieving" as well, but this is the one I am focusing on for the moment.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

You believe that it's a cognitive distortion if they all ten believe they were deceived? You are now in charge of what is healthy to believe and what is not (assuming that you believe it's unhealthy to have cognitive distortions)? You feel qualified to state that these 10 people, all of whom you do not know and never have spoken with face to face, are all suffering from the same unhealthy cognitive distortion, simply because they vent and grieve at a place like RfM?

I got that impression too, that Wade believes that if we think the church is deceptive, we are guilty of cognitive distortion. Is that what you meant, Wade?

[_wenglund]

OK...so if I understand you correctly, you're saying that it is wrong for someone who feels victimized in the case of the Church, to publicy act out as a victim by venting or grieving on RfM or a website like this one in a mocking, angry manner. That's fair.

Again, you got it nearly 180 degrees backwards. I have explicitely said that I think it perfectly reasonable for people to "vent" and "grieve" at RFM given their cognitions (i.e. their thinking they have been victimized, or there thinking they have been lied to and decieved, or their thinking they have sufferred a significant loss, etc.), just as I thought it perfectly reasonable for the schizophrenic to yell at me and try to stop me given his cognitions (i.e. that men who a running will cause death to others). Is that clear? Or, do I need to repeat it and bold it and increase the font size (or perhaps go back to the several statements in the tread where I have explicitely said this, and bold them as well)?

My concern is with the cognitive distortions (i.e. misthinking they have been victimized, or misthinking they have been lied to and decieved, or misthinking they have sufferred a significant loss, etc.) that have contributed to the dysfunctional "venting" and "grieving" at RFM and elsewhere.

Is that, again, perfectly clear?

I still think you could have worded this much more succinctly in your OP, but at least now we're getting down to the actual focus of your point, which, I think most here will agree, has been very confusing. Thank you for clearing that up.

As explained to you earlier (Gee, I am getting tired of repeating myself and correcting stupifying mispercpetion of me at nearly every turn) the intent of the OP was to spark group discussion, not outline my thesis. But, I am pleased that at least some things have been cleared up. Hopefully now the rest of the repeated misperception have been cleared up as well, and we can start to have a meaningful and productive dialogue.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Yoda]

Wade...you're talking in circles, and not making any sense. What's tragically laughable is that you don't even see it.

I asked you earlier if your point was that people who felt they were victimized by the Church were cognitively distorted. You told me that I was "180 degrees wrong". Now, maybe you were referring to the fact that I added that the solution to that would be attending Church again. If that was where I misunderstood you and was jumping the gun, fine. But that's not what you indicated.

Then, after you go into another long diatribe about the evils of playing the victim (which I agree with, by the way), and lashing out in anger and backbiting, I suggest that this must be your point. Now I am again, "180 degrees wrong".

It seems that we are at an impass, Wade...which is apparently, more than likely, a relief to you, anyway.

It's obvious you're as irritated with me as I am with you.

Maybe other posters can contribute more to your liking. I'm done with this thread. I wish you well.

[_wenglund]

Try as I do, I think I am getting more confused with each page of this thread.

:-) Let me try this...

Wade, if ten people all believe the church is not true, they all believe there were deceived, they all believe they wasted a lot of time and money for the church, yet they react differently (some vent, some cry, some repress, some shout for joy, some scream, some get depressed, others get angry, some let it all go), what (to your way of thinking) are the cognitive distortions that create the behavior of those who yell or vent or post on RFM?~dancer~

I bolded in your statement above what I believe to be a cognitive distortion that may or may not lead to what I consider dysfunctional "venting" and "grief" at places like RFM and elsewhere.

There are other cognitive distortions that may also cause the dysfunctional "venting" and "grieving" as well, but this is the one I am focusing on for the moment.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

You believe that it's a cognitive distortion if they all ten believe they were deceived?

Yes, as compared to far more (on order of magnitudes) who don't believe they were decieved--both believers and former believers alike.

You are now in charge of what is healthy to believe and what is not (assuming that you believe it's unhealthy to have cognitive distortions)?

It is not a matter of being in charge (any more so than you, as a disbeliever, may think you are in charge of what is true or false for millions of believing members of the Church). It is a matter of reasoning and understanding the difference between healthy and functional cognitions and unhealthy and dysfunctional cognitions.

You feel qualified to state that these 10 people, all of whom you do not know and never have spoken with face to face, are all suffering from the same unhealthy cognitive distortion, simply because they vent and grieve at a place like RfM?

Yes, I do feel qualified to determine if they are suffering from a variety of cognitive distortions (not to be confused with "the same" unhealthy cognitive distortion) given the nature of the "venting" and "grieving" at places like RFM.

And, you may ask: "how am I able to do that without knowing them personally nor having met them face to face"? Well, I can do so simply because their "venting" and "grieving" contain all the information I need to know in making that determination.

The same is true were I to visit some online anti-Semite websites. Given what is stated in their "venting", I, as a perfect stranger to them, and anyone else who has a modicum of common sense and familiarity with the cause of anger, hatred, prejudice, and bigotry, could surmize the cognitive distortions behind their "venting".

I hope this helps.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Runtu]

It is not a matter of being in charge (any more so than you, as a disbeliever, may think you are in charge of what is true or false for millions of believing members of the Church). It is a matter of reasoning and understanding the difference between healthy and functional cognitions and unhealthy and dysfunctional cognitions.

Here's one problem I see, Wade. Earlier you espoused a postmodern approach to "truth" (and in Tal's interview, you suggested that truth ought to have quotation marks around it), positing a truth that is subjective. Thus, in a postmodern world, perception is reality; cognition is "true," so you cannot say that any cognition is distorted or unhealthy because all are equally true.