Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?

[Marcus]

So you said nobody had taught people to pray, I picked an example (out of many) that showed people had done just that, and now you’re shifting track to something about what words Jesus supposedly used being significant? What’s next, the unique type of sandals he wore?

Instead of trying to assert things that you haven’t really researched, why don’t you ask questions or actually read people’s responses and think about how those answers might inform your view and opinions. Instead of blindly grasping at new straw after new straw once your original point has been shown to be completely wrong.

The one thing you should have learnt by now is that whatever you come here and assert, there’s a very high probability you’re wrong and that people here know enough to show you that.

This is an interesting response. For all of the lurkers and others that read this forum without having much to say, look carefully at what this guy is saying. Read between the lines.

Arrogance, hubris, and sidetracking manifestly and flagrantly exposed.

Regards,
MG

Yours exposed, yes.

[Marcus]

...As I’ve said, you have nothing to offer to replace the message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. A gospel of hope, of purpose, of eternal meaning and progress.

That’s why I refer to you and your secular humanistic way of life as an ‘empty vessel’ feeding at the trough of doubt...

Obviously, at this point, mg belatedly remembered the rules, the rules of the forum, of his religion, and of basic decency. You can just see the backtracking....

Two things can be true at the same time, however. I can still see you as a worthwhile, happy, fulfilled human being while seeing you also as a person that offers nothing beyond what the here and now offers....

That didn't go well. Gymnast habits die hard.

[Morley]

Isaiah 63:16

"You are our father, for Abraham did not know us, neither did Israel recognize us; You, O [YHWH], are our father; our redeemer of old is your name."

This is liturgical ‘prophetic oracle’ warning given to the people of Moab to warn of impending judgement and destruction. When Jesus taught his disciples…us…how to pray he taught us that we address God as our Heavenly Father.

I would think that the liturgical warning that you’re quoting was an appeal to the people by instruction or name of Jehovah.

I think we’re looking at two similar things and yet different.

No we're not. Only Mormons believe that Jehovah and Jesus are the same person.

Whether it's liturgy or not has nothing to do with it. There are several other places in the Old Testament where Jews refer to God as father. If you want a nonliturgical example, look in Psalms.

Other religions have God the Father, have prophets with a relationship with God, and have exhortations to pray to God.

But again, those are the Abrahamic religions. One might expect that the ‘people of the book’ would have the monotheistic view of ‘one God’. That doesn’t then entail that they all (talking about Muslims and Jews here) had an understanding of Jesus as Savior and how to pray to a Heavenly Father in his name.

Jesus came to earth and showed us how to pray to the Father. Before Jesus the ‘prayers’ were of a liturgical nature without a direct link to God by the regular Joe and Jane. It was the oracle that used ‘the prayer’ or liturgies as a warning or admonition to the people to act and behave in a certain way or they would bring the judgments of God down upon them. That’s different than the Lord’s Prayer instruction that Jesus taught to his disciples.

In the Book of John we have Jesus offering a prayer directly to the Father showing us the intimate connection we can have with God. My post to Mantheo is bringing up the possibility (fact?) that this was all something new in the sense that other oracles, prophets, miracle workers, sages, etc, did not have that same concept/understanding in mind or purpose in their heart.

This is a regurgitation of what you learned in Sunday School. It has nothing to do with the reality of what other religions teach or have taught. Personal prayer was not invented by Jesus. Look at your own theology where, for instance, Adam kneels down and prays to God.

It also has has nothing to do with your claim that no one before Jesus both had a relationship with God and taught people to worship and pray to God.

It has nothing to do with your declaration that no one before Jesus referred to God as father.

[MG 2.0]

This is an interesting response. For all of the lurkers and others that read this forum without having much to say, look carefully at what this guy is saying. Read between the lines.

Arrogance, hubris, and sidetracking manifestly and flagrantly exposed.

Regards,
MG

Yours exposed, yes.

I don’t think so. In all seriousness I’m stating the fact that IHAQ doesn’t have anything to offer me that gives greater hope and purpose to life than knowing God lives and Jesus is the Christ. Now, you can take it or leave it, as can he. I’m merely stating the facts as I see them.

I, as a matter of fact, said that he, or you for that matter, can live a happy and fulfilled life of your own making. And I wish you well in that endeavor. Really.

The fact is, however (if I understand you correctly) you are more or less sure/positive that when you die…that’s it. And that it’s a dead end. It is NOT arrogant of me to state the obvious…you can offer absolutely no hope beyond the here and now.

That’s just the way it is. If you see me as being arrogant and mean by simply stating things as they are then, well, I can’t help you with that.

I wish EVERYONE well, no matter what their belief system. And you have yours. Even though you may not describe it as such.

Regards,
MG

[Morley]

Zoroastrianism is a couple of thousand years older than Christianity. It's always had a tradition of personal prayer to a creator god.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastri ... %5D%5B3%5D

[MG 2.0]

This is a regurgitation of what you learned in Sunday School. It has nothing to do with the reality of what other religions teach or have taught. Personal prayer was not invented by Jesus. Look at your own theology where, for instance, Adam kneels down and prays to God.

Exactly. But Adam belongs to the Patriarchs of the Abrahamic Covenant and Judaeo Christian narrative of one God in whose image we are created.

It’s simple.

Morley, I’ll say the same thing to you as I did IHAQ and Marcus. From as much as I can gather you also have little or nothing to offer that would supersede the message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

You can twist things around to something of your own making and if it makes you happy I wish you well. I do.

I have not seen anything else in the world that has a higher and holier message than the CofJCofLDS. If I did, I’d go for it.

Yes, I know some will say that it’s the faith of your fathers and all that. But it’s MORE than that for me. I’ve taken the time and effort (not saying that you haven’t) to dig deep and to dig for a long period of time. I think it’s all true at its core.

But that’s not to say that I think I have some understanding of where you, IHAQ, Marcus, and others are coming from. I’ve been through ‘the dark night of the soul’ also.

Anyway, we’re picking a son up at the airport and we have another child getting married tomorrow so I’ve got to go.

Until later. Best wishes.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

Yours exposed, yes.

I don’t think so. In all seriousness I’m stating the fact that IHAQ doesn’t have anything to offer me that gives greater hope and purpose to life than knowing God lives and Jesus is the Christ. Now, you can take it or leave it, as can he. I’m merely stating the facts as I see them.

I, as a matter of fact, said that he, or you for that matter, can live a happy and fulfilled life of your own making. And I wish you well in that endeavor. Really.

The fact is, however (if I understand you correctly) you are more or less sure/positive that when you die…that’s it. And that it’s a dead end. It is NOT arrogant of me to state the obvious…you can offer absolutely no hope beyond the here and now.

That’s just the way it is. If you see me as being arrogant and mean by simply stating things as they are then, well, I can’t help you with that.

I wish EVERYONE well, no matter what their belief system. And you have yours. Even though you may not describe it as such.

Regards,
MG

And more "arrogance, hubris, and sidetracking manifestly and flagrantly exposed."

You just can't help yourself, can you?!!

[Morley]

This is a regurgitation of what you learned in Sunday School. It has nothing to do with the reality of what other religions teach or have taught. Personal prayer was not invented by Jesus. Look at your own theology where, for instance, Adam kneels down and prays to God.

Exactly. But Adam belongs to the Patriarchs of the Abrahamic Covenant and Judaeo Christian narrative of one God in whose image we are created.

It’s simple.

Morley, I’ll say the same thing to you as I did IHAQ and Marcus. From as much as I can gather you also have little or nothing to offer that would supersede the message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

You can twist things around to something of your own making and if it makes you happy I wish you well. I do.

I have not seen anything else in the world that has a higher and holier message than the CofJCofLDS. If I did, I’d go for it.

Yes, I know some will say that it’s the faith of your fathers and all that. But it’s MORE than that for me. I’ve taken the time and effort (not saying that you haven’t) to dig deep and to dig for a long period of time. I think it’s all true at its core.

But that’s not to say that I think I have some understanding of where you, IHAQ, Marcus, and others are coming from. I’ve been through ‘the dark night of the soul’ also.

Anyway, we’re picking a son up at the airport and we have another child getting married tomorrow so I’ve got to go.

Until later. Best wishes.

Regards,
MG

You make assertions.

I show you how you're wrong.

You change the subject by bearing your testimony.


I'm not trying to dispute your beliefs. I'm fine with you believing what you want. I'm not mocking Mormonism. I'm telling you that what you are saying here is silly, stupid, and vain.

I'm not attempting to 'supersede the message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.' I'm telling you that you need better arguments.

MG, you need to realize that if someone were to call you an idiot*, it wouldn't mean that they were calling your God an idiot. It wouldn't be directed at your God, your beliefs, or your religion. It'd be pointed at the badly formed arguments you present and defend.




edit: *No, i don't think you're an idiot.

[ceeboo]

Hey Morley

Only Mormons believe that Jehovah and Jesus are the same person.

Originally called Modalism (An early church belief that was rejected around the 2nd century AD) now under different names like United Pentecostals, believe in "Oneness" - meaning that God is one person who shifts between three modes - Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

Just wanted to add that to the discussion.

[Gadianton]

I read MG's dialog with his "A.I.". So, MG is fantastically confused about what he's accomplished with his dialog. All he's proven is that Mormonism isn't early Christianity.

Inquiry: What does it mean to say that we are all children of a common father in heaven?

In the context of Mormonism, the phrase "we are all children of a common Father in Heaven" refers to the belief that God is the literal father of our spirits. This doctrine is often referred to as the "divine parentage" or "premortal existence."

First of all, this isn't specific enough. What is it meant by "literal father"? Does MG mean that God had sex with his wife (or wives) and the wives gave birth to spirit babies? Unless that's what MG means, there is really no difference between Mormon's belief or anyone else's.

Inquiry: Besides Jesus Christ, what other religions or belief systems at the time of Jesus Christ believed in a God that was literally our father in heaven.

At the time of Jesus Christ, there were several religious and philosophical belief systems that held some version of the belief that humans were descended from or connected to the divine. Here are a few examples:

MG commits the fallacy of the complex question. When the response invariably doesn't give examples of literal fatherhood, MG concludes that Christianity is unique in its teaching and aligns with Mormonism's belief.

I asked copilot:

Does this sentence "Besides Jesus Christ, what other religions or belief systems at the time of Jesus Christ believed in a God that was literally our father in heaven" commit the fallacy of the complex question?

Yes, the sentence you provided can be seen as committing the fallacy of the complex question, also known as a “loaded question.” This fallacy occurs when a question contains an implicit assumption that may not be true or is not universally accepted, thereby forcing the respondent to accept that assumption in their answer.

lol.