The Mormon God and Conditional Love

[_Jason Bourne]

Code: Select all

I haven't met any believing Mormons who believe God loves us conditionally. Strange. 

Well I have. I've watched a particularly close friend micromanage his spiritual life because he's so scared God will love him less. He's spoken about God's favor being on LDS more than others, and is so sad that I'm a moral, spiritual, and kind person who doesn't go to church every sunday. My life doesn't matter, where I show up on sunday does, and that is conditional love. God really only favors me when I show up in an LDS chapel and "partake of the fullness of the Gospel".

I sometimes call him out on his views, and he agrees with me with his lips, but his actions say otherwise.

Does the evangelical Christian God love unconditionally?

Damnit Jason, I AM NOT EVANGELICAL in your myopic sense!!!!!

Oh hell would you lighten up. I did not say that you were.

Learn the difference between FUNDIE and EVANGELICAL!!!

The only evangelicals I knowa re fundies. I think your types are few.

So let me rephrase:

Does the God of Christianity love unconditionally?

[_harmony]

You say "Because LDS don't "know" any more than Evangelicals "know". We all just believe."

That statement flies in the face of the entire Church. This church is founded upon the principle of revelation.

The LDS church is founded on the idea that Joseph wasn't lying. And the way the church is heading now, I'm not so sure God's really at the head. I mean... why does God want to spend $6 billion on a shopping mall?

This church might have had the authority to do what you say, but do they still? According to Pres Benson, this church is under condemnation.

[_harmony]

The only evangelicals I knowa re fundies. I think your types are few.

I think you're right about that!

So let me rephrase:

Does the God of Christianity love unconditionally?

Ah, now that's a different question altogether!

[_Roger Morrison]

There is little question about THE Mormon "God" loving conditionally. If that isn't obvious to anyone who thinks they know Mormonism...then it is obvious they don't KNOW/UNDERSTAND the crieteria of Mormonism. As to Fundies today, i would say generally speaking they do/might... As for "God" there is absolutely no question! "God" is no respector of persons... Rain and sun produce life essentials for every living creature that crawls, walks, swims or flies in the realms of our Universe. If one stops unacceptable behaviour they immediately begin to experience the effects of so going; no rituals or membership required.

As Jesus repeatedly told those of his day, who considered themselves Official Reps of "God", "...You don't know "God"..." so, i respectfully suggest WE are just at the beginning of making "God's" aquaintance today. And 'Officialdom' plays absolutely no part in the relationship! Warm regards, Roger

[_guy sajer]

The only evangelicals I knowa re fundies. I think your types are few.

I think you're right about that!

So let me rephrase:

Does the God of Christianity love unconditionally?

Ah, now that's a different question altogether!

Is there any evidence in scripture that God loves unconditionally? I see none, except for some high sounding platitudes, that are belied by the fire and brimestone messages elsewhere.

The whole notion of "hell" or "outer darkness" or "three degrees of glory," or anything having to do with ETERNAL punishment is wholly incompatible with unconditional love, particularly when the sin in question is no more than choosing one's own path in life, including one's own beliefs and values, that differ from what someone else might have chosen for you.

THIS merits eternal punishment?

Again, how many of us would even dream about extending the same kind of "unconditional love" to our own children?

[_harmony]

The only evangelicals I knowa re fundies. I think your types are few.

I think you're right about that!

So let me rephrase:

Does the God of Christianity love unconditionally?

Ah, now that's a different question altogether!

Is there any evidence in scripture that God loves unconditionally? I see none, except for some high sounding platitudes, that are belied by the fire and brimestone messages elsewhere.

The whole notion of "hell" or "outer darkness" or "three degrees of glory," or anything having to do with ETERNAL punishment is wholly incompatible with unconditional love, particularly when the sin in question is no more than choosing one's own path in life, including one's own beliefs and values, that differ from what someone else might have chosen for you.

THIS merits eternal punishment?

Again, how many of us would even dream about extending the same kind of "unconditional love" to our own children?

I try to remember that the scriptures were written by men. And what they say may not be what God said, since all scriptures is filtered through both culture and individual writer. That the Old Testament is full of myths, colored by ancient culture, stories written by men trying to make sense of their lives. A rain for 40 straight days, flooding, so much death? How to explain it, except that God is mad at us? We were bad people, so God sent the rain and killed us all. Did a localized devastating flood really happen? Maybe. Did God do it? Highly doubtful. The ancients had no other way to explain nature phenomena, except to attribute it to God.

Thus... what I believe:

God is no respector of persons, as Roger said. The rain and sun is for everyone, God-fearing and atheist alike, no matter if one worships according to a prescribed method or not. Just as the hurricane hits everyone in the vicinity, so does the warm summer day.

Also... if the Resurrection/Atonement worked as we've been told, the grave has no chains for anyone. Death does not bind us, and all will be resurrected, no matter what kind of life was lived. No conditions to be fulfilled, no need to bend a knee, no payment required. And no greater reward for those who do.

If exaltation works like I think it does, we'll all get what we want and deserve. You don't want the CK, with godhood, perpetual increase, and multiple wives. Fine. Take a different choice. Someone else does? Fine. They know what is required.

I live my life according to my terms, not within the confines of some ancient guy with an axe to grind against the women who rejected him. He might have written the letters that God told him to write, but that doesn't mean his culture and his own personality didn't color the delivery. And it doesn't mean God is bound by words in a book, no matter how ancient. My relationship with God is personal, requires no oversight by men, and requires work on both sides, otherwise it's not a relationship.

[_Roger Morrison]

Harmony, you say:

I try to remember that the scriptures were written by men. And what they say may not be what God said, since all scriptures is filtered through both culture and individual writer. That the Old Testament is full of myths, colored by ancient culture, stories written by men trying to make sense of their lives. A rain for 40 straight days, flooding, so much death? How to explain it, except that God is mad at us? We were bad people, so God sent the rain and killed us all. Did a localized devastating flood really happen? Maybe. Did God do it? Highly doubtful. The ancients had no other way to explain nature phenomena, except to attribute it to God.

Thus... what I believe:

God is no respector of persons, as Roger said. The rain and sun is for everyone, God-fearing and atheist alike, no matter if one worships according to a prescribed method or not. Just as the hurricane hits everyone in the vicinity, so does the warm summer day.

Also... if the Resurrection/Atonement worked as we've been told, the grave has no chains for anyone. Death does not bind us, and all will be resurrected, no matter what kind of life was lived. No conditions to be fulfilled, no need to bend a knee, no payment required. And no greater reward for those who do.

If exaltation works like I think it does, we'll all get what we want and deserve. You don't want the CK, with godhood, perpetual increase, and multiple wives. Fine. Take a different choice. Someone else does? Fine. They know what is required.

I live my life according to my terms, not within the confines of some ancient guy with an axe to grind against the women who rejected him. He might have written the letters that God told him to write, but that doesn't mean his culture and his own personality didn't color the delivery. And it doesn't mean God is bound by words in a book, no matter how ancient. My relationship with God is personal, requires no oversight by men, and requires work on both sides, otherwise it's not a relationship. (Bold added by RM)

I think we are in close agreement in most of your thoughts. Although you seem to expect some kind of "exaltation", am i correct in thinking you do? If so, for what reasons, and with what purpose that is not presently being served in the Universe?

Might be hard-thinking, but i'm curious as to what makes your seeming openess come to that close?? Warm regards, Roger

[_harmony]

I think we are in close agreement in most of your thoughts. Although you seem to expect some kind of "exaltation", am i correct in thinking you do? If so, for what reasons, and with what purpose that is not presently being served in the Universe?

Might be hard-thinking, but i'm curious as to what makes your seeming openess come to that close?? Warm regards, Roger

I don't understand your question as presently stated. Please rephrase, so I can make sure I'm answering what you're asking.

[_Sam Harris]

Code: Select all

I haven't met any believing Mormons who believe God loves us conditionally. Strange. 

Well I have. I've watched a particularly close friend micromanage his spiritual life because he's so scared God will love him less. He's spoken about God's favor being on LDS more than others, and is so sad that I'm a moral, spiritual, and kind person who doesn't go to church every sunday. My life doesn't matter, where I show up on sunday does, and that is conditional love. God really only favors me when I show up in an LDS chapel and "partake of the fullness of the Gospel".

I sometimes call him out on his views, and he agrees with me with his lips, but his actions say otherwise.

Does the evangelical Christian God love unconditionally?

Damnit Jason, I AM NOT EVANGELICAL in your myopic sense!!!!!

Oh hell would you lighten up. I did not say that you were.

Learn the difference between FUNDIE and EVANGELICAL!!!

The only evangelicals I knowa re fundies. I think your types are few.

So let me rephrase:

Does the God of Christianity love unconditionally?

You are still stuck on the view of Christianity that the church has hammered into your head, just like many others.

Yes, the God of Christianity does love unconditionally, but if you do not take the time to study and see who he really is, you are going to always come up with the wrong answer. But I do understand that your need to have your religion be right and protected at all times will not take you far on this journey.

[_Sam Harris]

The only evangelicals I knowa re fundies. I think your types are few.

I think you're right about that!

So let me rephrase:

Does the God of Christianity love unconditionally?

Ah, now that's a different question altogether!

I stand by what Wikepedia and those who have thought deeply about this subject, myself included had to say. I've dealt with christian a**holes too, that doesn't make all of us the same, and it doesn't even make them the majority, it just makes them the loudest and most unpleasant sort of people to deal with. But I understand that religion is a very personal thing, and if one has to make evangelicals out to be a rabid sort to make onesself feel better about a lesser sort of spiritual disenfranchisement within one's own faith, have at it. Individual happiness is what's most important.

Since my God is a god of conditional love, can you answer the question that Bourne posed? I'd be interested to know what you think.