"Spiritual Infidelity"?????

[_guy sajer]

This argument, of course, applies ONLY to Mormon apostates. If the couple in question were, say Baptist, and the husband converted to Mormonism, would Bsix make the same argument?

As is typical of augments advanced by true believers, this is an argument of convenience, not an argument of principle. In the above example, which is every bit a "spiritual adultery" as a Mormon spouse who converts to another religion or belief, Bsix would talk proudly of the "courage" of the formerly Baptist spouse. More, Bsix would probably endorse wholeheartedly if the now Mormon spouse went further to endeavor to convert the children to Mormonism, contrary to the wishes of the Baptist spouse.

Can anyone here tell me what the critical difference is between the two cases?

There is no difference. You are correct, though whether this person bsix would react the way you state is an unknown.

But just like TD pointed out, if two agnostics marry and agree religion is not part of their life and the one later becomes a Mormon then that spouse has reneged on part of the promise. If a Jew marries a believing Jew and they agree to raise their children Jewish and one becomes a Christian then it is exactly what bsix describes. Same if two Catholics marry as Catholics and then one becomes a Mormon.

I would not call it spiritual adultery but it certainly is changing the ground rules that the marriage started on.

But people change in all sorts of ways. Things that I thought my wife was I may have missed out on and got wrong. She did not know that I have some of the hang ups that I have that maybe I did not know about. Marriage is all about working together to make a full rich relationship is spite of all this.

Yes I think that when two agree on a faith and one changes that it is a major issue. I do not believe it is grounds to terminate unless one, or the other, is abusive about it.

As I have explored my LDS faith and found that things are not as I thought they were my wife and I have talked. I have feared for our marriage. I asked her if I abandoned the LDS faith if when would leave me. We have discussed what she might do if I were interested in worshipping elsewhere or not at all. We have come to some understanding on these things. I believe whatever the our come, as long as we are decent and respectful to each other about our faith, what we believe or do not believe we will be fine and our love for each other will grow.

So, I would rarely see changing beliefs on one spouses part as reason for ending the marriage. I think that fact that this bsix would think it is ok is wrong and in fact contrary to what the Church would want, as well as the Bible. Paul said the believing spouse should stick with the unbelieving spouse.

Having spent 40+ years in Mormonism, I am reasonably confident that Bsix, along with most other Mormon faithful, would rejoice at the prospect of one spouse converting to Mormonism, while another does not. Not that they are happy about the stress it may place on the marriage, more they won't think about it, let alone care about it. I cannot think of a single example in 40 years, plus a mission, in which anyone had any concern about baptising only one spouse in the context of what it might mean for the marriage itself. More generally, spiritual truth, and the search for it, in Mormon culture is celebrated only to the extent it leads someone to accept Mormonism. Anything other than this is considered invalid.

[_Yoda]

William James just posted some wise advice on that same thread on MAD:

If the church is truly concerned about the high rates of divorce, they might start by setting more realistic expectations about married life when kids are young. The romanticized version of marriage (i.e., girls believing that if they marry a returned missionary in the temple this will make everything alright) sets up highly unrealistic expectations, and causes a great deal of heartache for both men and women when they realize that the sex isn't what they imagined it to be, that their spouse evolves and matures, that the maturing process may even lead to a rejection of beliefs once held dear, and that married life doesn't transform life into bliss. Add to that the "eternal" nature of the relationship/commitment in LDS doctrine, and you have a recipe for some very very hurt feelings and grave disappointments.

I encourage marriage. But with some experience now under my belt, I would strongly caution any young person considering marriage to go into it with realistic expectations. Among this education I suggest would be a class about the nature of sexuality of men and women as demonstrated through current modern science. Although this would in some ways be a letdown for some people by destroying certain notions of romanticism, it would help them to set realistic expectations and build a relationship of love without worrying about whether they, their spouse, and their sex life are OK and normal.

I graduated from High School in the early 80's, and believed all of the "Saturday's Warrior" romanticism.

My husband and I were married in the temple, and we have been married for 20 years, but there have been many ups and downs along the way. Both of us had false expectations of what marriage should be. I agree that young people need to have more realistic expectations about marriage, sex, etc.

[_truth dancer]

I just readt the thread on MAD... wow!

I'm seriously floored.

Do these folks not love their spouse? How in the world does someone who loves their husband/wife just up and divorce them for changing beliefs.

Anyone who could do this just plain doesn't love their spouse, children, or family.

I can't imagine such a thing.

~dancer~

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

My parents were both agnostic when they married. Ten years into their marriage my mother joined the church. So, what my father should have divorced my mother?

No, your mother should have divorced your father. There is no use dragging along deadwood when you have embraced the the One True Church.

This thread is making me think of the situation we know of personally, in which the husband of a nonmember couple leaves his wife without warning one day, went to work and never returned. They'd been married 25 years with two grown kids, and virtually all communication between the two since has been through the children. He divorced her, then she eventually found out that he had joined the Mormon church. The way she got the story was that the church had encouraged him to divorce her because he "knew" that she wouldn't be willing to join the church. That's undisputed. She wouldn't have been willing to join the church. Still, as cynical as I can be about the church, I couldn't imagine that he would have been advised to leave her like that without even discussing the church with her -- except, when he joined the church it became obvious that there was a little more to the story -- he was involved with a Mormon woman with whom he had worked and been friends with for a number of years. She had recently divorced her husband. The two of them are now married in the temple. His kids are disgusted with him. Her kids hate him. It's creepy and sleazy. It's my opinion that he's too smart and knowledgeable to have been sucked in by the church, although it might meet his emotional needs in some ways, but he has done all this to be with the Mormon woman, and that the church (or local leaders, at least) paved the way for all this because they were happy to be getting a presentable and high-earning convert. Just my opinion, but I suspect Gazelam would see no problem with any of it.

[Anonymous]

I just readt the thread on MAD... wow!

I'm seriously floored.

Do these folks not love their spouse? How in the world does someone who loves their husband/wife just up and divorce them for changing beliefs.

Anyone who could do this just plain doesn't love their spouse, children, or family.

I can't imagine such a thing.

~dancer~

I think this shows the fallacy in the idea that any two people can have a marriage based solely on religious affiliation or "the gospel". Sadly enough it appears that religion comes much higher on the list of "marital musts" than what are in my mind much more important components to relationships. The Church seems to assume that compatibility, attraction, mutual interests (and I don't know: LOVE!) are things that will grow in time. The important thing is getting them tied to the church.

This whole blitz dating system the LDS system promotes is just crazy, and as more and more people realize what their religion truly is, and the fact that they're married to someone only because of that religion, I would say this problem will get worse and worse.

I don't want to throw too many cliches out about marriage as a prison or "the old ball and chain", but the LDS way of trying to toss people into marriage as soon as possible, and getting them to have kids as soon as possible appears in my view an attempt to shackle the people to the church, and to each other. It appears to lead to many unhappy marriages where people wake up one day and realize that the church is the biggest thing in their marriage. Maybe a marriage can grow out of the pieces of a spouses apostacy, but sadly it appears many people are married to the church rather than their spouse, and choose the church.

[_Yoda]

My parents were both agnostic when they married. Ten years into their marriage my mother joined the church. So, what my father should have divorced my mother?

No, your mother should have divorced your father. There is no use dragging along deadwood when you have embraced the the One True Church.

This thread is making me think of the situation we know of personally, in which the husband of a nonmember couple leaves his wife without warning one day, went to work and never returned. They'd been married 25 years with two grown kids, and virtually all communication between the two since has been through the children. He divorced her, then she eventually found out that he had joined the Mormon church. The way she got the story was that the church had encouraged him to divorce her because he "knew" that she wouldn't be willing to join the church. That's undisputed. She wouldn't have been willing to join the church. Still, as cynical as I can be about the church, I couldn't imagine that he would have been advised to leave her like that without even discussing the church with her -- except, when he joined the church it became obvious that there was a little more to the story -- he was involved with a Mormon woman with whom he had worked and been friends with for a number of years. She had recently divorced her husband. The two of them are now married in the temple. His kids are disgusted with him. Her kids hate him. It's creepy and sleazy. It's my opinion that he's too smart and knowledgeable to have been sucked in by the church, although it might meet his emotional needs in some ways, but he has done all this to be with the Mormon woman, and that the church (or local leaders, at least) paved the way for all this because they were happy to be getting a presentable and high-earning convert. Just my opinion, but I suspect Gazelam would see no problem with any of it.

I think you're right about this guy. He was using the Church for his own purposes. The guy is a low-life.

I disagree on your opinion of Gaz, though, just based on conversations I've had with him. I'll let him speak for himself, but I don't think he would agree with someone using the Church for his own gain, which is obviously what this guy was doing.

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

My parents were both agnostic when they married. Ten years into their marriage my mother joined the church. So, what my father should have divorced my mother?

No, your mother should have divorced your father. There is no use dragging along deadwood when you have embraced the the One True Church.

This thread is making me think of the situation we know of personally, in which the husband of a nonmember couple leaves his wife without warning one day, went to work and never returned. They'd been married 25 years with two grown kids, and virtually all communication between the two since has been through the children. He divorced her, then she eventually found out that he had joined the Mormon church. The way she got the story was that the church had encouraged him to divorce her because he "knew" that she wouldn't be willing to join the church. That's undisputed. She wouldn't have been willing to join the church. Still, as cynical as I can be about the church, I couldn't imagine that he would have been advised to leave her like that without even discussing the church with her -- except, when he joined the church it became obvious that there was a little more to the story -- he was involved with a Mormon woman with whom he had worked and been friends with for a number of years. She had recently divorced her husband. The two of them are now married in the temple. His kids are disgusted with him. Her kids hate him. It's creepy and sleazy. It's my opinion that he's too smart and knowledgeable to have been sucked in by the church, although it might meet his emotional needs in some ways, but he has done all this to be with the Mormon woman, and that the church (or local leaders, at least) paved the way for all this because they were happy to be getting a presentable and high-earning convert. Just my opinion, but I suspect Gazelam would see no problem with any of it.

I think you're right about this guy. He was using the Church for his own purposes. The guy is a low-life.

I disagree on your opinion of Gaz, though, just based on conversations I've had with him. I'll let him speak for himself, but I don't think he would agree with someone using the Church for his own gain, which is obviously what this guy was doing.

To clarify, I think Gaz would have no problem with a convert divorcing a spouse who wouldn't come with him into the church, not that he would condone someone using the church for his own gain. The guy in the story is someone I've known for ten years or so, I was speechless to find out he'd left his wife, and even more speechless to find out he'd converted to Mormonism. I think he was wrong, wrong, wrong, and I'm on the ex-wife's side on all this, and at this point have a friendship with only the ex-wife ... still, I don't think that the main problem is that he is a low-life or using the church for his own purposes. He didn't really have to use the church, as far as I can see. I think the church made it easy and justified for him and his new Mormon wife to be together in order to gain a convert, and that the "church" nor its members can even see the situation for what it is. My TBM sister is a close friend to this woman and believes it all to be okay because they didn't commit adultery and maybe that's so (I'm a little skeptical), but what's the important thing, to keep a family together or resist sexual temptation? I hope they are happy because they've caused a lot of misery to a lot of people in the process. The TBM woman's first husband is still TBM so the children will remain sealed to him, their TBM children are angry that the sealing of their parents has been undone, and the inactive children are just angry for whatever. His children call him a "basket case" and will never be interested in the church. His ex-wife has recently found happiness with another man, but she's still suffering from something like PTS. The desertion of her first husband was horribly traumatic for her.

[_Mary]

I can see it now. Dad does not believe. Mom dumps dad. Dad has kids for the weekend. Dad does not allow them to go to Church and Dad spends a lot of time putting the Church down and maybe mom as well for dumping him over the Church.

Very true. As one of these children separated and isolated from the unbelieving parent I have to say I would be told that my mother was a very bad person because of X, Y and Z. Z, the most underlined point made was that my mother was not Mormon any longer, and Mormons are good people. I could write a book about the s*** my father and Mormon family (a portion of my fathers family) told me concerning why they were superior to my mother and her "ways".

Cultural Isolation is alive and well in the marginalized Mormons. This process in single member families is a point not examined enough. The exmormon father (such as myself) is told what the children will be doing as far as religious indoctrination.

We are told from Nursery that Jesus is love. How sick a connection can there be? Jesus is not love. Family is love. Jesus, your temple recommend and Joseph Smiths "spiritually placed" penis is love.

"No nursery for the child because you want me to ask the bishop for a background check on any males in Nursery? Why do you not trust the bishops ability to direct? "

"you can't teach the children about Mormonism in any fashion. The children are going to primary. If you reject this you don't support me.".

Both of these are direct quotes from my wife. I am met with no leeway to express myself and my lack of faith to the children even though I love them just as much, am paying for everything they use, eat, do etc. The animosity and anger I have against Mormonism is especially pertinent while discussing issues like this.

Vegas, my parents just about divorced when my mum decided to join the church. Her mother had just died, and she embraced it completely. My dad (ever the calm, rational one) stepped back I think, and wondered what they heck was going on. He was losing her before his eyes. Suddenly mum wanted him to change, to stop going for a drink (He NEVER got drunk, but always enjoyed a night with the men down the local), stop this, stop that. He was no longer acceptable to her as he was. He became very threatened, and the arguments they had were awful. Mum trying to persuade him, wanting to share her new found faith and beliefs, and dad just not wanting to jump on the bandwagon. In the end we all (except my brother who never forgave any of us) got baptised at 11.00pm almost at night, with my dad doing it I think, to get the missionaries off his back, and to please my mum (though he wouldn't admit that to her at the time, I think because he knew he was losing her).

Luckily for my dad, a very wise home teacher told my mum that 'family Trump's' in Juliann's words, and that was that. We all went inactive about 6 months after joining. But my mum wasn't happy for a long, long time. It wasn't all down to the church I'm sure (their problems) but grief did our house become an unpleasant one for a while.

The belief system in the church is such an all encompassing one that it can be divisive. In hindsight though, I don't think that my mum handled things correctly. In terms of ethics and true christianity, I think my dad was closer to a 'christian' ethos. He still loved her for what she was, it was she that stopped accepting him.

I think it is obvious that differing belief systems in families can be divisive, but they needn't be, and within any church, including the LDS, a little bit of genuine love and tolerance goes a long way.

I also relate to you in the case of children. I cannot imagine tying my son down to one belief system and to indoctrinating him (often through fear I think) into a particular belief system. Using the church's own theology, isn't it the height of evil to force or not offer choice? Satan, according to LDS theology would force everyone to heaven by NOT offering choice. Children must have enough freedom to choose, I think that would be the most Christ like way?

Just my opinion.

[_Gazelam]

If you notice in my posts I stated that the condition I place would be if the non-member were antagonistic to the church. If they arent a member and are pasive, then of coarce the marriage should stay together. In many cases the faithful member may eventually convert the spouse through example. I heard Matthew Cowley in a talk state that the non-member spouse should not be preached to, unless they ask.

In regards to the guy who broke up his marriage, I don't know the details, but it sounds on the surface pretty reprehensible. Just because someone is married in the temple does not mean that the marriage was sealed by the spirit.

Gaz

[_Jason Bourne]

To clarify, I think Gaz would have no problem with a convert divorcing a spouse who wouldn't come with him into the church, not that he would condone someone using the church for his own gain. The guy in the story is someone I've known for ten years or so, I was speechless to find out he'd left his wife, and even more speechless to find out he'd converted to Mormonism. I think he was wrong, wrong, wrong, and I'm on the ex-wife's side on all this, and at this point have a friendship with only the ex-wife ... still, I don't think that the main problem is that he is a low-life or using the church for his own purposes. He didn't really have to use the church, as far as I can see. I think the church made it easy and justified for him and his new Mormon wife to be together in order to gain a convert, and that the "church" nor its members can even see the situation for what it is. My TBM sister is a close friend to this woman and believes it all to be okay because they didn't commit adultery and maybe that's so (I'm a little skeptical), but what's the important thing, to keep a family together or resist sexual temptation? I hope they are happy because they've caused a lot of misery to a lot of people in the process. The TBM woman's first husband is still TBM so the children will remain sealed to him, their TBM children are angry that the sealing of their parents has been undone, and the inactive children are just angry for whatever. His children call him a "basket case" and will never be interested in the church. His ex-wife has recently found happiness with another man, but she's still suffering from something like PTS. The desertion of her first husband was horribly traumatic for her.

I am sorry but I am skeptical of your anecdote. In over 25 years of serving in almost every leadership capacity one can serve in on and LDS ward level, and a few on the stake level I have never, not once, seen a new member encouraged or prodded to leave a spouse that may have no interest on joining. Just the opposite in fact-pro-active counsel to stay with the spouse, love the spouse and not to shove religion down the uninterested spouses throat.

Same is true when both are members and one loses faith. Always, the counsel is to work through it and stay married.

Of course I know my experience is limited to the wards and stakes I have lived in so I do not see everything. If this really happened this way I believe it the exception rather then the rule.