mentalgymnast wrote:hi guy. you said:
Even if we concede Jesus was it, the burden to demonstrate that Mormonism represents his legacy on earth is a difficult hurdle. And, if as you have pointed out, Mormon leaders are no more inspired than the average Joe, this burden of proof becomes heavier yet.
OK, let's say I accept that JC is the one. Assume I have no history in Mormonism, but that I am an empirical sort who relies on evidence and reason, rather than emotions. What evidence can you offer me that Mormon leaders carry the mantel of JC as they claim they do?
MG: OK, now we're getting somewhere. First, however, would you mind pointing out where I said that Mormon leaders are as a matter of fact "no more inspired than the average Joe"? I'm starting feel the progress of time and my memory isn't quite what it was, but I'm not sure that I can remember putting it quite like that. Earlier in the thread I did say,
...that God typically steps aside and lets his creations act for themselves and learn for themselves...in almost ALL situations, times, and circumstances.
Now, let's go to church. Why would one think that God would NOT operate pretty much the same way within the confines of a small subsection of humanity called his church? Why do we assume that every jot and tittle has been spelled out?
Is this what you're referring to? If so, I'm not seeing where this fact (if indeed it is a fact) would negate the possibility that the CofJCofLDS is true. I don't see where the burden of proof becomes any greater.
We need to build a foundation or at least a blueprint where we can find Jesus Christ (the literal and only begotten Son of God) ,the chief cornerstone, working with a fallible/imperfect group of men...his apostles and prophets...to bring about his purposes.
After all, he did it once before, remember Peter and Thomas for example? And how about Paul?
Are you willing to go that far? If not, we still find ourselves in a quandry for reasons that you can well surmise.
Would a God somehow be able to accomplish his purposes and establish a true church through less than perfect men?
If we can get to this point, then I think we can start to look at some evidences that would help us look for a "true church."
Otherwise, I still think we don't have anywhere to purposefully/reasonably go. I know, however, this may be asking you to stretch a wee bit too far...
Regards,
MG
Throughout your posts on this topic, you have persisted in portraying LDS leaders as “humans,” or normal men who are no more inclined to receive divine guidance than, say, George Washington. Your question posed in this post does it yet one more time.
I am more than willing to concede that God only can work through the tool he has, and this consists of imperfect men and women. (The fact that the Mormon God works only through men is one piece of evidence I use to assess Mormonism’s truth and authority claims.)
But, at the same time, I hold presumed men of God to higher standards than to which I hold other men--higher standards of rectitude, wisdom, morality, etc. I expect these men to offer a true value added to humanity, by which I mean wisdom, learning, insight into the human condition and the great moral and other questions of the ages not generally available through other sources, and I expect them to be moral exemplars—imperfect to be sure, but of higher moral fiber than the typical person.
You, and other believers, offer me nothing to demonstrate that Mormon leaders satisfy these criteria. By your own repeated admission (largely implied at times), these men are no different, are as imperfect, possess no added insight than others.
In addition, I note a common tendency among apologists to actually hold Mormon leaders to lower standards than others, a trait that I find absolutely fascinating. Mormon apologists have turned the old chestnut complete on its head. Instead of “to whom much is given, much is required,” we get by implication “to whom much is given, little is required.”
So I would consider any evidence you might offer me that Mormon leaders in fact satisfy these criteria. That they are materially different and more advanced than the common man in terms of morality, insight, wisdom, etc., and that they offer a true value added to humanity.
What evidence can you offer me along these lines?
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."