For Coggins Concerning the Role of Women: Probably Off Topic

[_Mister Scratch]

The fact that the highest exaltation consists of a husband and wife walking hand in hand through the gate of the Celestial Kingdom speaks volumes as to the relationship a man and a woman should have together.

This is not correct. It is the man who summons the woman through the veil.

[_Mister Scratch]

Actually, it was Joseph F Smith that moved Relief Society from being on equal status with the priesthood to being a priesthood auxilliary. It's documented in Women and Authority. http://www.signaturebookslibrary.org/wo ... htm#Mormon The damage that man did to LDS women is unestimatable. If he's in the CK, you can bet I'm not going in.

When the time comes that any of the critics are able to use sources, any sources other than material by Signature Books as support for their assersions, intellectual credibilty will be right around the next corner. Works by authors associated with this binder are quoted as if they are, by definition, the last word on the subject or reliable on their face.

There is nary a book that has ever come of Signiture's presses that doesn't have a preconcieved, and many times, fashionable ideological ax to grind with the chruch, and many of us are aware of the fact that objectivity is not always in adaquate supply at Signiture.

Loran

Signature already Trump's your sources, which amount to a big, fat, stereotypical Right-wing: zero. Sort of like your pals in office and their "Weapons of Mass Destruction." Face it, Loran: you hate the idea of women being allowed the priesthood. It terrifies you, and conjures up the horrid specter of "demagoguery" in your booze-addled little hick mind. Now climb back in your pickup, pop in your Lynyrd Skynyrd cassette, wave your Confederate flag to all the befuddled on-lookers, and smile for the camera!

[_Coggins7]

Signature already Trump's your sources, which amount to a big, fat, stereotypical Right-wing: zero. Sort of like your pals in office and their "Weapons of Mass Destruction." Face it, Loran: you hate the idea of women being allowed the priesthood. It terrifies you, and conjures up the horrid specter of "demagoguery" in your booze-addled little hick mind. Now climb back in your pickup, pop in your Lynyrd Skynyrd cassette, wave your Confederate flag to all the befuddled on-lookers, and smile for the camera!

This is interesting, if only for the cartoon stereotypes of conservatives Scratch trots out, again in lieu of any intelletually substantive statements about anything. I'm tempted to return like for like here, but I'm trying to get away from that, as Scratch and a few others froth and flail away (there's no need to go into Scrach's pitifully uninformed broadcasting of the mainstrem media's and anti-American Left's bombastic lies about WMD in Iraq and that war in genreal, as this is just a red herring to start another match, and I'm not going to give this intellecutual fraud any further face by actually engaging him in discussion of anything).

Just as a matter of general information, the idea that I hate the idea of woman having the Priesthood is a real riot. I have no opinion on the subject, as a matter of fact. M only caveat is that when and if such comes, it will come in the Lord's own time and in his own way. Any human attempt to force such a change is little more than a bald admission that the church is not a divine institution but a human one that can be altered at will through political pressure, as well as bespeaking a tacit assumption that the church is ours to do with as we will, and not the Lord's. Since Scratch clearly believes neither in the divinity or ministerial authority of the church or that it is Christ's, he can freely go about trying to alter it so that it looks much more like his church.

I do have a pick up, but I don't have a Confederate flag (and have no reason to, since I am not a Southerner), I don't like Leonard Skynard, and I try to keep the booze to an absolute minimum.

My main musical interests are Jazz (Fusion, Straight Ahead, Avant Garde, Experimental, just about anything), Classical, New Age and Space/Meditation. Some folk, and ethinic music, including traditonal and modern Celtic, Afto-Celtic, African, Traditoinal Chinese music, Big Band and Retro Swing, and this and that. I pretty much stopped listening to commercial pop music and rock when I was nineteen, and have only followed that off and on. I own almost no pop albums of any kind (except for a few. My wife is a Beatles fanatic (especially Paul) and likes some other, pretty much light stuff).

Scratch is a Toid, pure and simple.

[_Mephitus]

Any human attempt to force such a change is little more than a bald admission that the church is not a divine institution but a human one that can be altered at will through political pressure, as well as bespeaking a tacit assumption that the church is ours to do with as we will, and not the Lord's.

I would say that precisly. As one such prime example, look at the events of 1978. If the church had not changed its entire stance on blacks, then it would have lost its tax exempt status. If that's not political pressure causing a change in gods doctrine, then i don't know what is.

[_harmony]

The fact that the highest exaltation consists of a husband and wife walking hand in hand through the gate of the Celestial Kingdom speaks volumes as to the relationship a man and a woman should have together.

This is not correct. It is the man who summons the woman through the veil.

This is exactly correct, and yet Gaz and Loran have both ignored it. I wonder why? A woman cannot even get out of the grave without a man to call her up. Please don't try to tell me women are equal to men in this church. That's just horse manure.

[_Mister Scratch]

Signature already Trump's your sources, which amount to a big, fat, stereotypical Right-wing: zero. Sort of like your pals in office and their "Weapons of Mass Destruction." Face it, Loran: you hate the idea of women being allowed the priesthood. It terrifies you, and conjures up the horrid specter of "demagoguery" in your booze-addled little hick mind. Now climb back in your pickup, pop in your Lynyrd Skynyrd cassette, wave your Confederate flag to all the befuddled on-lookers, and smile for the camera!

This is interesting, if only for the cartoon stereotypes of conservatives Scratch trots out, again in lieu of any intelletually substantive statements about anything. I'm tempted to return like for like here, but I'm trying to get away from that, as Scratch and a few others froth and flail away (there's no need to go into Scrach's pitifully uninformed broadcasting of the mainstrem media's and anti-American Left's bombastic lies about WMD in Iraq and that war in genreal, as this is just a red herring to start another match, and I'm not going to give this intellecutual fraud any further face by actually engaging him in discussion of anything).

It is no different from your huckster, conspiracy-theory spin-jobs of the Left, Loran. Maybe you've gotten the point by now? as far as I know, the "lies" regarding WMD were a complete fabrication of the war-mongering Right-wing. You should set aside your pipe-bomb-for-Planned-Parenthood project for just two seconds so that you can screw your head on tight, you stupid rube.

Just as a matter of general information, the idea that I hate the idea of woman having the Priesthood is a real riot.

Actually, it is easily inferred from the many posts we've seen from you on this topic.

I have no opinion on the subject, as a matter of fact. M only caveat is that when and if such comes, it will come in the Lord's own time and in his own way. Any human attempt to force such a change is little more than a bald admission that the church is not a divine institution but a human one that can be altered at will through political pressure, as well as bespeaking a tacit assumption that the church is ours to do with as we will, and not the Lord's. Since Scratch clearly believes neither in the divinity or ministerial authority of the church or that it is Christ's, he can freely go about trying to alter it so that it looks much more like his church.

Your perspective on gender roles is little more than a conflation of the Naturalistic Fallacy, and argumentum ad antiquitatem---totally illogical suppositions that are really supported by nothing beyond your love and obedience towards the Church. (Which, I notice, you repeatedly and disrespectfully fail to properly capitalize.) Moreover, your claim that "such a change [I assume you meant "charge"] is little more than a bald admission that the [C]hurch is not a divine institution" seems completely oblivious to the doctrine, which we have heard repeatedly, that the "leaders are not infallible."

Another problem is that anyone supporting the Church's party line on this issue (and, for that matter, anyone trying to argue that the Church's position vis-a-vis women is totally kosher) has got a lot to answer for. The people who say that it will happen "In the Lord's time" remind me of Gradualists in the South, who felt that de-segregation should happen over a long time period. The bottom line is that the Church takes a jaundiced view of women, I'm afraid. Women in the LDS Church are essentially seen as second-class citizens. Some problematic elements:
---The Church's opposition to the ERA
---No priesthood for women
---Total ecclesiastical authority in the hands of men, which in turn means that women must appeal to men for: TRs, baptisms, repentance, sealings, cancellation of sealings, blessings, and so on. Further, if a woman suffers abuse at the hands of a priesthood-holding male, the only ecclesiastical leader she can go to will be another priesthood-holding male.
---Lessons taught to LDS girls which present them with the rather draconian, Freudian dilemma of being either "madonnas" or "whores," with no middle ground. (E.g., the infamous "chewed-up gum" lesson.)
---Micromanagement of women's appearances (BKP's recent talk is a prime example), which take on a sort of "Pygmalion" quality: the Brethren remaking all these women in their preferred image.
---Women cannot enter the CK without their husbands' help---in fact, women are dependent upon men for salvation in the LDS Church.
---Various cultural pressures to have many children, despite not being able (or not supposed to) to "preside" in their own homes.
---Implicit recommendations from the Brethren to be stay-at-home moms, rather than to fully explore all the opportunities life has to offer. (Another instance of micromanagement, and pigeonholing.)

I'm sure that I'm overlooking some other problematic aspects of the Church's relationship to women, but these cover some of the major problems, in my opinion. The bottom line is that a person who supports the Church's view on gender roles, also gives implicit approval to everything I've laid out above. Thus, Loran, you are embracing a sexist ideology.

I do have a pick up, but I don't have a Confederate flag (and have no reason to, since I am not a Southerner), I don't like Leonard Skynard, and I try to keep the booze to an absolute minimum.

Hey, terrific. Do you listen to Lynx and Lamb Gaede? Do you own a firearm? Do you have a mullet?

My main musical interests are Jazz (Fusion, Straight Ahead, Avant Garde, Experimental, just about anything), Classical, New Age and Space/Meditation. Some folk, and ethinic music, including traditonal and modern Celtic, Afto-Celtic, African, Traditoinal Chinese music, Big Band and Retro Swing, and this and that. I pretty much stopped listening to commercial pop music and rock when I was nineteen, and have only followed that off and on. I own almost no pop albums of any kind (except for a few. My wife is a Beatles fanatic (especially Paul) and likes some other, pretty much light stuff).

Glad to hear you've got eclectic and rather non-judgmental tastes in music. If only you could extend that way of seeing things to politics and the world of ideas.

Scratch is a Toid, pure and simple.

Toid?

[_Coggins7]

Good grief. This individual is a veritable stereotype and poster child for the classic angry, bitter, bleeding heart airhead Liberal. He's a walking archtype. The Creature Walks Among Us.

I should, by all rights, never discuss anything with this crude, boorish ideologue again, but with each response, the entire world gets another display of what, to an unfortunate extent, lies in the heart of darkness of the world of professional ex-Mormons and anti-Mormons who leave the church but cannot then leave it alone. We also get a very nice glimpse of the psychology and perceptions that lie at the heart of the Moveon.org, Indymedia, Soros base of the Democratic Party and why that party has collapsed intellectually and morally to the point that they are no longer a serious and loyal opposition to the Republicans (a group that itself has a lot of explaining to do regarding its performance over the last decade and a half) and have now become physically dangerous to the security of their own country.

Let's play some more.

[_Coggins7]

Glad to hear you've got eclectic and rather non-judgmental tastes in music. If only you could extend that way of seeing things to politics and the world of ideas.

One more thing. This statement above is just precious. This is what happens to the human mind when it becomes so imbued with the overwhelming need to be policially correct (and therfore, morally superior) that it simply ceases to funtion as an organ of critical thought or even the simple making of sense. "Non-judgmental tastes in music"? It would probably take a Cultural Anthropology professior from Berkely to make any sense of this, but please let's not ask. I'd rather be spared the pain. Indeed, the above is utterly unintelligible unless one has been sufficiently immersed in the thick idiological broth in which Scratch has apparantly been strewed much of his life.

[_Gazelam]

I think that rising from the grave, passing through the veil, and receiving your exaltation are all seperate occurances.

D&C 132: 19-20

"...... and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.
20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.


Notice that the line at the beginning there has reference to "They" passing the angels, and the Gods which are set there.

[_Mister Scratch]

Good grief. This individual is a veritable stereotype and poster child for the classic angry, bitter, bleeding heart airhead Liberal. He's a walking archtype. The Creature Walks Among Us.

I should, by all rights, never discuss anything with this crude, boorish ideologue again, but with each response, the entire world gets another display of what, to an unfortunate extent, lies in the heart of darkness of the world of professional ex-Mormons and anti-Mormons who leave the church but cannot then leave it alone. We also get a very nice glimpse of the psychology and perceptions that lie at the heart of the Moveon.org, Indymedia, Soros base of the Democratic Party and why that party has collapsed intellectually and morally to the point that they are no longer a serious and loyal opposition to the Republicans (a group that itself has a lot of explaining to do regarding its performance over the last decade and a half) and have now become physically dangerous to the security of their own country.

Let's play some more.

Your view on women is a conflation of the Naturalistic Fallacy, and argumentum ad antiquitatem. Further, your complete and total obedience to the Church and its teachings on gender reveals you to be, at heart, a sexist. Thus, your beliefs vis-a-vis women are both illogical and immoral.