Welcome question for Shirts: Where is the stone box?

[_Baurak Ale]

What would the Gold Plates Prove to you if they turned up? I am a believer however, I can't see how even if the gold plates materialized that they would prove anything, I don't follow? They could for example just be some gold plates of genuine antiquity that Joseph Smith found however they may of had no devine or religious significance. There are infact gold assyrian plates for example. I am puzzled by what believers and sceptics are trying to achieve as definitive truth or falsehood can never be achieved. If it could would someone please explain it to me?

[_dartagnan]

What would the Gold Plates Prove to you if they turned up? I am a believer however, I can't see how even if the gold plates materialized that they would prove anything, I don't follow?

Well, it would prove Joseph Smith wasn’t lying, for one thing.

They could for example just be some gold plates of genuine antiquity that Joseph Smith found however they may of had no devine or religious significance.

If they were available for inspection, then we have the ability to determine its provenance, the period from which it dates, and whether or not the engravings represent a reformed version of Egyptian. If these things could be verified then it would suggest strongly that Joseph Smith was indeed a prophet. It doesn’t “prove” it in the strict sense, but then if these things are verified, at the very least several questions would be begged: How else would a farm boy be able to date gold plates to a precise period and recognize them as reformed Egyptian, a language which up to that point, was completely unknown to mankind?

I am puzzled by what believers and sceptics are trying to achieve as definitive truth or falsehood can never be achieved. If it could would someone please explain it to me?

I think the problem boils down to the convenience factor in LDS thought whereby evidence is always lacking where evidence would be expected to exist, for the sole purpose of promoting one’s faith. It is a quagmire I think, for LDS insist eye-witness “testimonies” should suffice. But then, why use testimonies at all? Wouldn’t an absence of testimonies just given us more reason to take it all on faith, just as well?


Ultimately, it seems just too convenient that expected evidences are always missing. Not just any ole evidence, but crucial evidences that can't be explained any other way except that Smith must had been a prophet.

[_Who Knows]

I am a believer however, I can't see how even if the gold plates materialized that they would prove anything, I don't follow?

Maybe we could call this the Book of Abraham syndrome.

[_Bond...James Bond]

James Bond. The Stone Box being found though a fact, doesn't prove anything, only that there was a stone box I suppose.

The box hasn't been found. If it had been found, it would be in a museum somewhere.

It was the contents of the box being found that would be good amunition because those items were supposedly taken back to heaven. Many people forget this account it seems and the sceptic would assume Joseph Smith made up the whole Cumorah, Gold Plates and Angels appearing story, which I quite add and affirm is completely possible.

Smith could have made up the whole thing. It's very possible.

However there was infact a stone box just like he said many many times, whether that box contained what he said it did, the Golden Plates, Urim and Thummim, Liahona, Sword of Laban is another matter but the box itself existed I am afraid.

I doubt there is a box. If it exists would you please show it too me. I'm the afraid the lack of existing evidence is on my side.

If I didn't believe any of it and was a complete sceptic I would take the position that Joseph Smith was a highly skilled hypnotist like umm. . . Rasputin. I am not sure if this has been explored at any length. However to account for all the witnesses to the plates, also those that went into the cave recessed into the hill camorah and saw the many table loads of plates. I think the use of hypnotism is a better explanation. It appears to me there are just too many witnesses on too many occasions and the witnesses clearly believed what they had witnessed. So interms of defending the other position of fraud I would be infavour of the explanation being hypnotism, I think that's the most credible theory in my mind.

In other words Smith hyponotized his buddies into thinking something. Could it be he hypotized them into thinking there were plates when in actuality there weren't any?

Most of the witnesses were his family and buddies. Not to mention that most of the 11 left Smith at some point.


PS Please use the quote feature:

Just type: (leave out the spaces between the brackites and "quote"

[ quote ]

then your text then

[ /quote ]

Bond

[_Mercury]

So to get the thread back on the right track, in answer to the question "Where is the Stone Box" it has been found on the Hill Camorah.

Thankyou Runtu and Zakusa for locating the reference. No I don't want to get on the wrong side of folks here, so I would like to state that the fact the Stone Box set in Cement of curious workmanship was actually found, located doesn't prove anything. My understanding is that the Gold plates themselves are what is wanted or desired to authenticate everything however if they turned up tommorow I can't really see the church all of a sudden becoming definitively factually true, it would only in my opinion give birth to further polemics. However the fact that the stone box was located does appear to be highly problematic to detractors. If I was on the other side of the fence, I would not be sure how to tackle the problem of the stone box being found. Has there been a credible anti- scholarly explanation for the finding of the box if there has I am unware?

In other news, the invisible pink unicorn, flying spaghetti monster and a tea pot of curious workmanship has also been found. When asked to produce these items or evidence thereof, those who have found these stated that those who ask for evidence are not logically sound.

I find it intellectualy dishonest to state that the stone box has been found.

[_Alter Idem]

Bond states: "I doubt there is a box. If it exists would you please show it too me. I'm the afraid the lack of existing evidence is on my side."

It may be inaccurate to state the the box has been found because obviously it hasn't. However, if you read the earlier post by Zakuska, David Whitmer claimed that the box was in pieces, washed down the hill in 1875. David was one of those dissenters and yet, he claims there was an actual box. I have no reason to believe he'd lie about that, since by this time he was no longer under "Joseph's spell"(no doubt as some critics see it).

What I'd like to know is, what happened to the pieces? I've never heard this story so I doubt anyone went and retrieved the pieces. My sister suggested that certainly earlier church historian types would have retreived them, but what if they didn't know about them also? They certainly could have been carried off by now, but what if they are still there--If I lived in that area, I'd go look for them.

What I, as a modern person wonder about is; the stone box was a piece of antiquity! Why the heck was it allowed to molder, decay and then wash down a hill, unless very few who even cared about it, knew about it.

[Guest]

Well Heres your google earth coordinates...

43° 0′ 0″ N
77° 13′ 0″ W

To bad it doesn't zoom close enough. I want to know where the "cave" is. that's where we are going to find the Gold plates. They said it wasn't in the Hill Cumorah but was in the area. There seems to be a wooded area just east of there.

[_Mercury]

What would the Gold Plates Prove to you if they turned up?

It would give those able to determine origins of artefacts a method for validating statements that are otherwise made from whole cloth. This validation would play into your and other believers favor.

Since there are no plates nor historical context even approaching the wild stories given by smith the only evidence we have for smiths stories are, well, smiths stories. we are asked by smith to validate these stories based on nothing but gut feeling which is your basic confidence scam.

[_Alter Idem]

Well Heres yuour google earth coordinates...

43° 0′ 0″ N
77° 13′ 0″ W

To bad it doesn't zoom close enough. I want to know where the "cave" is. that's where we are going to gind the Gold plates.

They said it wasn't in the Hill Cumorah but was in the area. There seems to be a wooded are just east of there.

What are we waiting for! I wonder if there is some kind of equipment that can be used to find hard objects under the earth--I think I saw something on CSI. Maybe someone at BYU could get up an expedition and permission to dig (of course it would need to be done quietly or they'd be labeled kooks).

[Guest]

Well they have that echo sounding technology and since its a drumlin (heeped up earth).

It's intresting that the old releifs of it make it look like a Pyramid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumorah

You know they dug into that "drumlin" in southern russia and found the Amazon women. ;)