Steel in America during the time of the Book of Mormon

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_Mr. Coffee
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Post by _Mr. Coffee »

why me wrote:Please go to this website to boneup on metals in the Book of Mormon. Don't let our critic friends get you down. I have known them for quite some time, and I am still around, alive and kicking....with just a touch of dementia from reading their arguments over and over again. But the book still stands tall Grandpa...regardless of how many times it has been kicked around like a football. I see no bruises.


So your brilliant rebuttle is to post a link to a site that uses sophistric b***s****ery, Mormon apologetics, and out-of-context takes on actual science?

Fail.
On Mathematics: I divided by zero! Oh SHI....
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

Fortigurn wrote:The article also helpfully quotes a source which describes MesoAmerican swords as made of wood or flint, certainly not 'steel', still less 'fine steel':


It does boggle the mind the lengths some people will go to defend the indefensible.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Mr. Coffee
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Post by _Mr. Coffee »

The best bit is down at the very end where the author of that site posts an update to a Wiki entry...

Some controversial evidence exists that iron and steel metallurgy took place in North American indigenous groups. Two internet sources, [1] ,[2], not affiliated with the LDS, present a few sites that may provide possible evidence. The website covers not only possible sites in the East, but also provides a small amount of evidence that may indicate that Anasazi or Hohokam tribes in the Southwest performed iron smelting. One unusual site in Central Texas [3]presents a hypothesized furnace carved directly into the bedrock of an ancient creekbed, and includes hypothesized blow holes manufactured also in the limestone creekbed. Several iron bird effigies are presented to strengthen the hypothesis. This evidence is unfortunately weakened by poor chronological control and insufficient reporting of excavation. Most of the recorded evidence for iron smelting appears to be of recent or unknown dates.


Bad enough that the guy used a Wiki entry as evendence, even worse is it was an entry that reinforced critics of the meso-american steel myth.
On Mathematics: I divided by zero! Oh SHI....
_why me
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Post by _why me »

Mr. Coffee wrote:
why me wrote:Please go to this website to boneup on metals in the Book of Mormon. Don't let our critic friends get you down. I have known them for quite some time, and I am still around, alive and kicking....with just a touch of dementia from reading their arguments over and over again. But the book still stands tall Grandpa...regardless of how many times it has been kicked around like a football. I see no bruises.


So your brilliant rebuttle is to post a link to a site that uses sophistric b***s****ery, Mormon apologetics, and out-of-context takes on actual science?

Fail.

No. I posted the article for grandpa75 to read. That is all. You have your take on it...Runtu has his take on it...and fortigurn has his take on it. Now it is grandpa's turn. Get the point?

Bullcrappery is in the eye of the beholder.
_Mr. Coffee
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Post by _Mr. Coffee »

why me wrote:No. I posted the article for grandpa75 to read. That is all. You have your take on it...Runtu has his take on it...and fortigurn has his take on it. Now it is grandpa's turn. Get the point?


Wrong answer, highspeed. You posted a defense of the Mormon steel myth in a debate thread on the topic. Runtu, Fortigrum, and myself have called you on it. If you didn't want to have your "evidence" called into question then you shouldn't have posted it.

Resorting to some tired song and dance about "everyone has their own opinion on it" just reeks of intellectual cowardace.
On Mathematics: I divided by zero! Oh SHI....
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

why me wrote:No. I posted the article for grandpa75 to read. That is all. You have your take on it...Runtu has his take on it...and fortigurn has his take on it. Now it is grandpa's turn. Get the point?

Bullcrappery is in the eye of the beholder.


I get the impression, why me, that you believe that our "take" on that article depends entirely on our preconceived conclusions about the Book of Mormon. I have to tell you that the Sorensen/Lindsay stuff wasn't compelling to me even when I was a believer. This was one of those areas I had to shelve. I may not use the same language as Mr. Coffee, but I do think it's a poor piece of apologetics and one you'd be wise to avoid.
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_why me
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Post by _why me »

Grandpa75,

Here is another site to boneup on:

http://www.meridianmagazine.com/ideas/050801steel.html
_Mephitus
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Post by _Mephitus »

is it just me? or where the arguments put forth in that last link already refuted?

I guess we are stuck with the believers saying theres a pink dragon in the garage and that since you can't see magic like them, its invisible.
One nice thing is, ze game of love is never called on account of darkness - Pepe Le Pew
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

why me wrote:Grandpa75,

Here is another site to boneup on:

http://www.meridianmagazine.com/ideas/050801steel.html


Once again you're quoting an article that works against the Book of Mormon at least as much as it supports it.

Anciently, iron was never melted or cast in the Near East. The earliest known examples of casting liquefied iron are from China in the fourth century B.C. "Due to its high melting point (1540 degrees C), iron was never worked as a molten metal during the [Near Eastern] Iron Age … Iron had to be hammered, the blacksmith first having to consolidate a hot, spongy bloom of iron mixed with slag. By hammering out the slag he was able to produce a usable lump of iron. In order to … use that iron, however, it was necessary to reheat the lump of iron and forge the hot metal to the desired shape."3

Note that the term "smelt" is never used in the Book of Mormon. This, again, is a modern conflation of ancient and modern concepts and practices.


So, we learn that "iron was never melted or cast in the Near East." But we have Nephi telling us the following:

9 And I said: Lord, whither shall I go that I may find ore to molten, that I may make atools to construct the ship after the manner which thou hast shown unto me?
10 And it came to pass that the Lord told me whither I should go to find ore, that I might make tools.
11 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did make a bellows wherewith to ablow the fire, of the skins of beasts; and after I had made a bellows, that I might have wherewith to blow the fire, I did smite two stones together that I might make fire.
16 And it came to pass that I did amake tools of the ore which I did molten out of the rock.


So, no, smelt is not used, but the smelting process is described. And what kind of ore was being smelted, according to the apologists?

Here's Kerry Shirts:

At Abha they found four iron ore deposits. A Saudi Archaeological and engineering team identified ten sites which yielded *tons* of ancient slag of gold, copper, and iron, as well as the ancient remains of smelters. Nephi could have easily learned his blacksmithing here as well. The Book of Mormon is not incorrect in noting this ancient science was had in Arabia.


The apologetics approach seems thus far to say that the metals were worked, not smelted. Here's Daniel Peterson:

The verb to smelt does not occur in the Book of Mormon, in any of its forms, so it is not entirely clear what we are to conclude from this "question." Only once, in early Jaredite history, do we seem to find a reference to the process (Ether 7:9). Iron was, evidently, relatively rare in the ancient New World, as the Book of Mormon itself attests. But iron of one origin or another was indisputably present and used in pre-Columbian America, and the question of whether or not iron was ever smelted in Mesoamerica is by no means closed. Several tons (tons!) of worked iron ores were very recently found at the Olmec site of San Lorenzo Tenochtitlán, in southern Mexico.


But the Book of Mormon describes smelting (even if it doesn't use the word), not metalworking.

Again, this is not a serious argument, why me.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Mr. Coffee
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Post by _Mr. Coffee »

why me wrote:Grandpa75,

Here is another site to boneup on:

http://www.meridianmagazine.com/ideas/050801steel.html


More handwavium and sophistry. Same ignorance of basic metallurgy (FYI, quenched iron is not steel). Let me guess, Walmart, you're going to resort to the "let's ignore them and hope the go away" combined with "I'll just say the same thing over and over again and completely ignore all evidence top the contrary" combo. Did you know that "wall of ignorance" is a form of debate fallacy?
On Mathematics: I divided by zero! Oh SHI....
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