Selek the Terrible -- and major freak show on MAD

[_gramps]

Why would god need sperm? We are his spirit children are we not? Did he create us from sperm? We are god's creation from the preexistence. He can place a 'soul' in somone without sperm since he is god. He already created us in the preexistence and so we had bodies already.

The act of procreation between humans is a way to create life that already exists. It is a human way to do it. But god being god, can do it anyway he chooses since that 'soul' already exists.

Good questions, indeed. So, even though God has a physical body, though a perfect one, he need not have sperm. But, what if it is perfected sperm? That would make sense, wouldn't it? But, then how would a perfected sperm interract with an imperfect (human egg)?

It's mind-boggling really, isn't it? The Christians (read: not Mormons) maybe had it right all along. It may be time to completely jettison this idea of God and Mary having sex, even though many prophets and even the Family Home Evening Manual suggest that was how it was done. Always the same conundrum with the Church: who to follow, the modern-day Prophets or the Bible?

[_Great Cthulhu]

Wouldn't God's sperm have immortal properties?

If so, then we've got 1 Apostle John, 3 Nephites, and 499,999 Holy Sperm -- all wandering the earth and doing good deeds until their lord's return.

[_Alter Idem]

It's mind-boggling really, isn't it? The Christians (read: not Mormons) maybe had it right all along. It may be time to completely jettison this idea of God and Mary having sex, even though many prophets and even the Family Home Evening Manual suggest that was how it was done. Always the same conundrum with the Church: who to follow, the modern-day Prophets or the Bible?

Are they still publishing Home Evening Manuals? I wonder if we even have one anymore? I don't think they are used much--I'd forgotten about them.

It really doesn't post much of a conundrum today for the average member. I think our more recent Prophets have learned that it is better to avoid speculating. There are a lot of times I wish the early leaders had been more careful in what they shared. If they believed they were teaching "mysteries", they should obeyed the Lord when he told them not share them.

The scriptures tell us that what we need to concern ourselves with are the basics--what Jesus called "my doctrine"-- Faith(believing in and following Christ), repentance(always trying to do better, endure to the end), baptism(making and keeping covenants) and the gift of the Holy Ghost (using the spirit to guide us in our lives). I think our leaders today have learned why it's important to stick to the basics and are doing better at following this counsel.

[_gramps]

It's mind-boggling really, isn't it? The Christians (read: not Mormons) maybe had it right all along. It may be time to completely jettison this idea of God and Mary having sex, even though many prophets and even the Family Home Evening Manual suggest that was how it was done. Always the same conundrum with the Church: who to follow, the modern-day Prophets or the Bible?

Are they still publishing Home Evening Manuals? I wonder if we even have one anymore? I don't think they are used much--I'd forgotten about them.

It really doesn't post much of a conundrum today for the average member. I think our more recent Prophets have learned that it is better to avoid speculating. There are a lot of times I wish the early leaders had been more careful in what they shared. If they believed they were teaching "mysteries", they should obeyed the Lord when he told them not share them.

The scriptures tell us that what we need to concern ourselves with are the basics--what Jesus called "my doctrine"-- Faith(believing in and following Christ), repentance(always trying to do better, endure to the end), baptism(making and keeping covenants) and the gift of the Holy Ghost (using the spirit to guide us in our lives). I think our leaders today have learned why it's important to stick to the basics and are doing better at following this counsel.

Definitely, I think sticking to the basics is the way to go. About the manual: I got that information from the mad board on CKs thread which was recently closed. I have no idea when it was published. You can look over there and find it, I'm sure.

[_Gazelam]

We had this discussion before here: http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/viewtopic.php?p=8895&highlight=sex+mary#8895

Here is my entry from that thread:



On one occasion when the apostles were met together, "Bartholomew?said to Peter, Andrew, and John, 'Let us ask [Mary] the favored one how she conceived the Lord and bore him.'" This was an embarrassing question, and no one was willing to approach Mary on the subject. "And Bartholomew said to Peter, 'You are the President and my teacher, you go and ask her!'" But Peter says Bartholomew himself should ask, and after much hesitation he approaches Mary on behalf of the other apostles, and she agrees to enlighten them.....

....."Peter said to Mary, 'Blessed one, please ask the Lord to tell us about the things that are in heaven.'" But Mary reminds Peter that as Adam has precedence over Eve, so it is his business to take the lead in such things. Having taken position in the circle, Mary begins to speak:

When I was in the Temple of God [a number of early sources report that Mary served in the Temple, like Samuel, as a child] ?there appeared to me one day a manifestation like an angel of unfamiliar aspect? And suddenly the veil of the Temple was rent and there was a great earthquake and I fell on my face unable to bear the sight of him. But he stretched forth his hand and raised me up, and I looked up to heaven and a dewy cloud came and [lacuna] moistened me from head to foot; and he wiped me off with his stole (robe, shawl) and said to me, "Greetings, thou favored one, chosen vessel!" and he grasped my right hand. And there was bread in abundance and he set it out on the altar of the Temple [cf. the shewbread], and he ate first and then gave to me. And he put forth his hand from his garment and there was wine in abundance, and he drank first and then gave to me, and I beheld and saw a full cup and bread. And he said to me, "In three years' time I shall send to you my Logos and you will bear a son, and through him all the creation will be saved? Peace to thee, my beloved, forever and ever." And suddenly he was gone from me, and the Temple was as it was before.

At this point the Lord himself appeared and commanded Mary "to utter no more of this mystery,"

(From the Gospel of Bartholomew)

Isa 7:14 reads: " Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. "

Mary was without question one of the greatest and most valiant in the pre-existence. Chosen from before the foundation of the world to bring into it, and care and nurture to maturity, the Savior of the world. In Luke we read the acount of the angel reminding her of her mission in this world:

Luke 1:28-35
28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

What does it mean that the Holy Ghost should come upon her?

John 6:46
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

We expand upon this in Moses 1:1-2
1 The words of God, which he spake unto Moses at a time when Moses was caught up into an exceedingly high mountain,
2 And he saw God face to face, and he talked with him, and the glory of God was upon Moses; therefore Moses could endure his presence.

Because of the sanctifying effect of the Holy Ghost, a man or woman may bear the presence of the God. Nephi is instructed concerning the conception and birth of the Savior by the Holy Ghost.

1 Nephi 11:18-20
18 And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh.
19 And it came to pass that I beheld that she was carried away in the Spirit; and after she had been carried away in the Spirit for the space of a time the angel spake unto me, saying: Look!
20 And I looked and beheld the virgin again, bearing a child in her arms.

By the power of the Holy Ghost Mary dwelt for a time in the presence of the Father, and bore the Savior of the world after the manner of the flesh. through a mortal Mother the Savior inherited the death that came from the fall, and through an immortal Father Christ could choose when he died, and had the ability to take up his life again by way of ressurection.

Gaz

[_gramps]

We had this discussion before here: http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/viewtopic.php?p=8895&highlight=sex+mary#8895

Here is my entry from that thread:



On one occasion when the apostles were met together, "Bartholomew?said to Peter, Andrew, and John, 'Let us ask [Mary] the favored one how she conceived the Lord and bore him.'" This was an embarrassing question, and no one was willing to approach Mary on the subject. "And Bartholomew said to Peter, 'You are the President and my teacher, you go and ask her!'" But Peter says Bartholomew himself should ask, and after much hesitation he approaches Mary on behalf of the other apostles, and she agrees to enlighten them.....

....."Peter said to Mary, 'Blessed one, please ask the Lord to tell us about the things that are in heaven.'" But Mary reminds Peter that as Adam has precedence over Eve, so it is his business to take the lead in such things. Having taken position in the circle, Mary begins to speak:

When I was in the Temple of God [a number of early sources report that Mary served in the Temple, like Samuel, as a child] ?there appeared to me one day a manifestation like an angel of unfamiliar aspect? And suddenly the veil of the Temple was rent and there was a great earthquake and I fell on my face unable to bear the sight of him. But he stretched forth his hand and raised me up, and I looked up to heaven and a dewy cloud came and [lacuna] moistened me from head to foot; and he wiped me off with his stole (robe, shawl) and said to me, "Greetings, thou favored one, chosen vessel!" and he grasped my right hand. And there was bread in abundance and he set it out on the altar of the Temple [cf. the shewbread], and he ate first and then gave to me. And he put forth his hand from his garment and there was wine in abundance, and he drank first and then gave to me, and I beheld and saw a full cup and bread. And he said to me, "In three years' time I shall send to you my Logos and you will bear a son, and through him all the creation will be saved? Peace to thee, my beloved, forever and ever." And suddenly he was gone from me, and the Temple was as it was before.

At this point the Lord himself appeared and commanded Mary "to utter no more of this mystery,"

(From the Gospel of Bartholomew)

Isa 7:14 reads: " Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. "

Mary was without question one of the greatest and most valiant in the pre-existence. Chosen from before the foundation of the world to bring into it, and care and nurture to maturity, the Savior of the world. In Luke we read the acount of the angel reminding her of her mission in this world:

Luke 1:28-35
28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

What does it mean that the Holy Ghost should come upon her?

John 6:46
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

We expand upon this in Moses 1:1-2
1 The words of God, which he spake unto Moses at a time when Moses was caught up into an exceedingly high mountain,
2 And he saw God face to face, and he talked with him, and the glory of God was upon Moses; therefore Moses could endure his presence.

Because of the sanctifying effect of the Holy Ghost, a man or woman may bear the presence of the God. Nephi is instructed concerning the conception and birth of the Savior by the Holy Ghost.

1 Nephi 11:18-20
18 And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh.
19 And it came to pass that I beheld that she was carried away in the Spirit; and after she had been carried away in the Spirit for the space of a time the angel spake unto me, saying: Look!
20 And I looked and beheld the virgin again, bearing a child in her arms.

By the power of the Holy Ghost Mary dwelt for a time in the presence of the Father, and bore the Savior of the world after the manner of the flesh. through a mortal Mother the Savior inherited the death that came from the fall, and through an immortal Father Christ could choose when he died, and had the ability to take up his life again by way of ressurection.

Gaz

Just when we were trying to get back to the basics......

[_The Dude]

These are our boards, and you have no more right to pollute them than you do to come into our homes and urinate on the carpet.

While I share Selek's disdain for carpet-pissers, I don't think that's a fair comparison to CKsalmon's thread. And I'm 99.9% sure that Mr. Salmon is housebroken.

[_moksha]

Why would god need sperm? We are his spirit children are we not? Did he create us from sperm? We are god's creation from the preexistence. He can place a 'soul' in someone without sperm since he is god. He already created us in the preexistence and so we had bodies already.

The act of procreation between humans is a way to create life that already exists. It is a human way to do it. But god being god, can do it anyway he chooses since that 'soul' already exists.

I was thinking BC was suggesting teleportation of the sperm from Kolob, but your suggestion that no sperm was needed makes sense too. Actually, I do not suppose this position is too far off the mainstream Christian pathway of thinking. You guys are so smart.

[_Gazelam]

These are our boards, and you have no more right to pollute them than you do to come into our homes and urinate on the carpet.

While I share Selek's disdain for carpet-pissers, I don't think that's a fair comparison to CKsalmon's thread. And I'm 99.9% sure that Mr. Salmon is housebroken.

Nice tie in to your Avatar Dude, and very subtle.

[_Fortigurn]

Why would god need sperm? We are his spirit children are we not? Did he create us from sperm? We are god's creation from the preexistence. He can place a 'soul' in somone without sperm since he is god. He already created us in the preexistence and so we had bodies already.

The act of procreation between humans is a way to create life that already exists. It is a human way to do it. But god being god, can do it anyway he chooses since that 'soul' already exists.

The problem is, LDS leaders have repeatedly taught that the manner of procreation was identical to that used by mortal men and women.