What would it take for you to leave Mormonism?

[_maklelan]

I have no clue how to do it like math, that was my worst subject, but how about approaching it another way? Give one good logical reason to believe in the church. I can't think of one.

I'm with Lucretia on this issue. Instead of asking "what would make you leave the Church" the question should be "why do you stay in the church".

Short answer, I can't see a single reason to leave it. I joined the church because I read the Book of Mormon and decided to pray about it to see if my life was changing because of it or because of something else. I received an answer. I have had numerous spiritual experiences since then that have confirmed my initial answer and I have seen, absolutely without exception, that my life is more full of joy when I adhere to the teachings of the church, whether I'm in the middle of horrible trials or not. The restored gospel, to me, is the most logical religion on the planet. It answers questions for me that science alone cannot. I've found that church history is often interpreted by imperfect people with agendas, so I just interpret it the way I see as most logical. I've been told both that I'm blindly following the apologists and that I'm not agreeing with them. Apparently they are both wrong. I have a lot of unanswered questions, but for the most part they are trivial, many of them have been answered with time. Every day of my life has been evidence to me that I made the correct decision to get baptized back in 2000, and it would take a revelation from God to convince me I was wrong. Why on earth would I accept anything less considering that's why I joined the church in the first place?

[_Mercury]

The logic would be along the lines of showing that fundamental doctrine A contradicts fundamental doctrine B.

Bzzzzt!

Wrong, try again. I believe you need to bone up on Contextualism.

So, open your college Philosophy textbook and read instead of trying to inject your god delusion into a logical conversation.

[_Who Knows]

Of course I think it won't happen. That said, I will tell you where you might find a good start: Tarski's spirit vision thread. Stuff like that is getting somewhere in the neighborhood.

Is that thread here or at MAD? If it's at MAD, do you have a link (I can't use the search function)?

You're right that logic isn't sufficient for believing, but I think it plays an important role. The reason I'm sticking with logic for leaving isn't because I think I'm safe that way (although I do). I leave it at logic because I don't trust emotional arguments. Maybe if I had personal experiences on par with what I see as evidence for the church it would help, but logic would still be vital.

But you're basically creating a 'can't lose' situation for yourself here. You're saying that you'd require a spiritual experience (that tells you the church isn't true) that's on par with your conversion spiritual experience. But this will never happen, because you would never accept this - as you feel that such an experience is not possible. In other words, if some type of spiritual confirmation came that the church wasn't true - it wouldn't be from the spirit because the spirit would never say such a thing - it must be from the devil or some other source. Hopefully that made sense.

An no, I'm not going to sin on purpose just to see what life is like without the spirit. I do that enough out of foolishness as it is.

Well yes, if you view it that way ('sinning' is something real which makes you lose 'the spirit'), then that's what will probably happen. If you can approach it from the point of view that there are no 'sins' - only consequences for 'bad' choices - and that there is no 'spirit' - only your conscience - then you may arrive at a different result.

[_Mercury]

I have no clue how to do it like math, that was my worst subject, but how about approaching it another way? Give one good logical reason to believe in the church. I can't think of one.

I'm with Lucretia on this issue. Instead of asking "what would make you leave the Church" the question should be "why do you stay in the church".

Short answer, I can't see a single reason to leave it. I joined the church because I read the Book of Mormon and decided to pray about it to see if my life was changing because of it or because of something else. I received an answer. I have had numerous spiritual experiences since then that have confirmed my initial answer and I have seen, absolutely without exception, that my life is more full of joy when I adhere to the teachings of the church, whether I'm in the middle of horrible trials or not. The restored gospel, to me, is the most logical religion on the planet. It answers questions for me that science alone cannot. I've found that church history is often interpreted by imperfect people with agendas, so I just interpret it the way I see as most logical. I've been told both that I'm blindly following the apologists and that I'm not agreeing with them. Apparently they are both wrong. I have a lot of unanswered questions, but for the most part they are trivial, many of them have been answered with time. Every day of my life has been evidence to me that I made the correct decision to get baptized back in 2000, and it would take a revelation from God to convince me I was wrong. Why on earth would I accept anything less considering that's why I joined the church in the first place?

Who introduced you to Mormonism?

[_Aquinas]

The logic would be along the lines of showing that fundamental doctrine A contradicts fundamental doctrine B.

Bzzzzt!

Wrong, try again. I believe you need to bone up on Contextualism.

So, open your college Philosophy textbook and read instead of trying to inject your god delusion into a logical conversation.

Logical conversation? Are you kidding me? There hasn't been a hint of logic prior to or after my post of Aquinas' argument. I suggest you reopen your logic textbook and bone up on what logic is, since you appear not to know.

I don't care that my argument didn't show that two Mormon doctrines contradicted each other, but it did show that a Mormon doctrine contradicted a sound argument about the oneness of God. Thus, it is a logical argument, which is what Asbestosman originally said would take for him to leave the Mormon church. Here is another logical argument for you, so you can practice:

1) All people who post on a message board of the religion they left are pathetic
2) Vegas Refugee posts on a message board of the religion he left
3) Therefore, Vegas Refugee is pathetic

[_Mercury]

1) All people who post on a message board of the religion they left are pathetic
2) Vegas Refugee posts on a message board of the religion he left
3) Therefore, Vegas Refugee is pathetic

Is this supposed to be bad logic for me to break apart or is this your attempt at proper logic?

[_Sethbag]

Maklelan, sure you get answers from the Church that you cannot get from science alone. The $64million question is, of course, whether those answers are worth the paper they're written on? You may have answers, and that may satisfy you, not really caring whether the answers are really true or not. Just remember, you're one person out of another 6.5 billion people, who are finding "answers" from their religions, and you'd have to agree that most of them aren't true. The Scientologists have a lot of answers too, that you definitely won't get from science, despite the name. But are those answers true? Is the reality they describe real?

I'd like to share with you something. The reality described by the LDS Church isn't real. It's an invention of the mind, hatched by few minds in the earlier 1800s and evolved over time by millions of well-intended minds in the 170 years since then, until it makes a lot of sense to you, and sounds really great. But it's still just an invention of the human mind, and not reality. Just like the elaborate descriptions of reality evolved by the JWs, the Buddhists, the Muslims, the Catholics, the Born-Again Christians, the 7th Day Adventists, and all the others.

[_Yoda]

1) All people who post on a message board of the religion they left are pathetic
2) Vegas Refugee posts on a message board of the religion he left
3) Therefore, Vegas Refugee is pathetic

Is this supposed to be bad logic for me to break apart or is this your attempt at proper logic?

It's perfect logic, Vegas. ;)

Here's another example:

1. All people who make passive aggressive personal attacks are childish.
2. Aquinas makes passive aggressive personal attacks on Vegas.
3. Aquinas is childish.

See how that works?

;)

[_Mercury]

1) All people who post on a message board of the religion they left are pathetic
2) Vegas Refugee posts on a message board of the religion he left
3) Therefore, Vegas Refugee is pathetic

Is this supposed to be bad logic for me to break apart or is this your attempt at proper logic?

It's perfect logic, Vegas. ;)

Here's another example:

1. All people who make passive aggressive personal attacks are childish.
2. Aquinas makes passive aggressive personal attacks on Vegas.
3. Aquinas is childish.

See how that works?

;)

One of the funniest things I see on MDB is the evangelicals making arguments against Mormonism using other BS doctrine as a "logical" basis.

[_asbestosman]

Of course I think it won't happen. That said, I will tell you where you might find a good start: Tarski's spirit vision thread. Stuff like that is getting somewhere in the neighborhood.

Is that thread here or at MAD? If it's at MAD, do you have a link (I can't use the search function)?

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index. ... 1207985098