Mormonism Manufactures Consequences for Sin

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_KimberlyAnn
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Re: Mormonism Manufactures Consequences for Sin

Post by _KimberlyAnn »

grampa75 wrote:I believe you are way out in left field. Adultery and fornication is one of the big ten, and it's next to murder. However, through repentence and sustaining you can find forgiveness for either of those sins, but only once. Think for a moment if you date in college and find a sweet partner that you engage in pre-marital sex and then your partner leaves you to find another partner for one reason or another. How would that make you feel, when you do find your perfect soul mate and have to tell him of your indiscreation.

Personally, I never had pre-marital sex with anyone, but my reason for that may be extreem for anyone. I posted here before that I was kidnapped, and sexually and physically abused and nearly had my life taken from me. I am so glad that I found my soul mate that was the same as I was in her attitude on the subject of sex. Now, of course being 75, I have not had sex in over a year. However, our relationship has turned to more in traveling around the globe and visiting some of the places where we were both served in Wars.

I personally believe that the Ten Commandments were not given to refrain us from enjoying anything this life has to offer; they were given as guide lines for us to find the one and only path to happiness.

In the end anyone who has sinned is going to experience grief or heartache for any and all sins they have committed. The best way to happiness is just to listen to God and believe in HIM.

grampa75


Grandpa75, Jesus said in the New Testament that if a man looks at a woman and lusts after her, he has committed adultery in his heart. If you really believe God only forgives adultery once, I hope you haven't looked upon any women with lust more than once, or you're in trouble! In my opinion, it's you who are way out in left field.

I am very sorry for what you suffered as a child and am glad that you found a woman with whom to share your life. I realize you're seventy-five, but if you're traveling with your wife and are healthy, you shouldn't stop having sex. Maybe I'm half your age and just don't understand, but I hope when I'm older and retired and traveling the world with my sweetheart that we'll be making love in all the wonderful places we visit.

KA
_maklelan
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Re: Mormonism Manufactures Consequences for Sin

Post by _maklelan »

guy sajer wrote:
maklelan wrote:
There's actually quite a lot of counsel. My wife suffered from abuse while she was a child and her bishop sent her to a counselor. BYU pays for any counseling that students want or need. Anyone who asks can find the resources, but you seem to demand that the church aggressively shove the resources down everyone's throat.


I wonder how common this is?

More, I wonder how common this is outside of North America, and particularly in developing countries?


Wherever the church has the resources they provide them. All people have to do is ask.
I like you Betty...

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_maklelan
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Re: Mormonism Manufactures Consequences for Sin

Post by _maklelan »

KimberlyAnn wrote:Maklelan,

Firstly, I don't believe there is evidence sufficient to support your claims.


I never expected that from you.

KimberlyAnn wrote:The fact is, outside of Mormonism, many, if not most people have sex prior to marriage.


I've lived most of my life outside of Mormonism. I'm aware of what goes on.

KimberlyAnn wrote:I do not believe it "often" leads to relationships built too heavily on a physical foundation.


The divorce rate would disagree with you.

KimberlyAnn wrote:Besides, aren't many Mormon marriages, at least initially, built on more of a physical foundation than those of non-Mormons? I can't tell you how many Mormons I know who married extremely young and after only a few months of dating. Some were engaged after only weeks of knowing one another, and I do not believe those are isolated cases. Exactly how much intellectual, social, emotional and communication compatibility can be determined in such a short time? Mormons are terrified of messing up and losing their virginity prior to marriage, yet the urge for sex is so strong, many are willing to marry practical strangers to whom they have an initial sexual attraction!


Just because the church teaches correct principles doesn't mean all the members follow correct principles.

KimberlyAnn wrote:I'd much prefer my children not marry quickly to avoid having premarital sex and instead focus more on assessing the important things you mentioned, intellectual, social and emotional compatibility, before making a lifelong committment. Those things can be determined sans a physical relationship, but it would take longer than most people are willing to wait for sex.


That's not the church's fault.

KimberlyAnn wrote:Your reply to me was rude. So was your reply to Runtu.


I'm sorry you feel that way. I apologize. I hope I can expect you to respond with kindness rather than just return rudeness for rudeness. That might start a cycle that neither person wants to offer to stop.

KimberlyAnn wrote:I assure you none of the consequences Mormons manufacture go over my head.


Then why is it a foregone conclusion? And why do you refuse to investigate what I've pointed out? Why do you instead just lean back on the same exact a priori assumptions you had before I presented the information?

KimberlyAnn wrote:I was a faithful Mormon for almost thirty-two years and I guarantee you, Maklelan, I "get it".


You do not make a strong case at this point.

KimberlyAnn wrote:Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I don't get it or that anything sailed over my head. I'd say it's the other way around. In my opinion, people believing in Jaredite barges, elephants in America, Semitic American Indians, the Book of Abraham being magically translated from common Egyptian funerary papyri, and the Curse of Cain are more likely to have things sail over their heads than people who reject those ridiculous claims and are based in reality. Perhaps my original post sailed right over your head?


I guess I can't count on you being the bigger person. You couldn't resist but return rudeness for rudeness, and after you tried to appear above that. I guess, rather than bother with this whole cycle I'll just bow out. I've said my piece and you've just rejected it without a moment of consideration. Nothing is going to come from a continued dialogue except for more frustration.

KimberlyAnn wrote:Are you taking lessons in manners from Wade?


No, but I'll take one from Runtu and let you know that I forgive you in advance for your impropriety. If that strikes you as rude then have words with Runtu, because he said the same thing to me, and all I've done is share my opinion. I could get used to just relying on ad hominem all the time. It saves more time then actually engaging the evidence.
I like you Betty...

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_Runtu
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Re: Mormonism Manufactures Consequences for Sin

Post by _Runtu »

maklelan wrote:No, but I'll take one from Runtu and let you know that I forgive you in advance for your impropriety. If that strikes you as rude then have words with Runtu, because he said the same thing to me, and all I've done is share my opinion. I could get used to just relying on ad hominem all the time. It saves more time then actually engaging the evidence.


Looking back through the thread, the only thing I said I forgave you for was a rather angry outburst (you said I wanted to shove things down people's throats). If I ever suggested anything like "forgiving you in advance" please point it out, and I will apologize, for that is indeed rude.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

I find it interesting that the first thing KimberlyAnn attempts to do at the beginning of her first post on this thread is use statistics to settle a moral and metaphysical question. The crude form of this argument, the one which she has used here, is simply if most people are doing it or support it (if its popular), it must be right. The philosophical fragility of this claim should be obvious at the outset.

The logical fallacy involved here is, of course, the implicit claim that the popularity of something can substantiate moral certitudes or conclusions about that practice. Unto itself, the claim is logically irrelevant, as no connection between the practice and any possible moral qualities with regard to it can be shown simply by demonstrating how widespread the practice is among the general population. If this were the case, one could convincingly show that, at certain times and places, human sacrifice was moral based upon its general prevalence (Ancient Mayan and Aztec civilization, for example).

In this context, BDSM or group sex, if such practices became common among a majority of Americans, could be brushed aside morally simply by saying "Most people engage in such practices" and pointing to a statistical chart.

Indeed, in typical post Sixties fashion, what we have here is morality by consensus.

KimberlyAnn's claims that premarital sexual activity comes free of psychological and sociological consequences is also belied by much actual social science evidence, which I won't go into here because of present time constraints, but that perhaps for another post.
_Lucretia MacEvil
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Post by _Lucretia MacEvil »

Coggins7 wrote: ... KimberlyAnn's claims that premarital sexual activity comes free of psychological and sociological consequences is also belied by much actual social science evidence, which I won't go into here because of present time constraints, but that perhaps for another post.


It really would be a waste of effort to disprove that "premarital sexual activity comes free of psychological and sociological consequences" because nobody in their right mind would ever believe in such an absolute. I didn't hear KimberlyAnn say it either. Maybe instead you could present evidence that "the church's teachings on morality come free of psychological and sociological consequences," if that's what you believe.

On the subject of sex, I have to agree with Krishnamurti. Do it or don't do it, just get on with it.

By the way, welcome to the board, Kimberly Ann.
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

One way to gauge the effects of premartial sex is to look at cohabitation (which logically implies premarital sex) and the nature of those relationships. Here are some links and examples of the research regarding premarital sex and its outcomes as compared and contrasted with the committed, married couple who waited until marriage for that most intimate of human relationships.

An excellent into to the subject is at www.members.aol.com/cohabiting/. Some interesting studies and essays can also be found at:

http://www.leaderu.com/critical/cohabitation-socio.html

And an excellent page at www.heritage.org/Research/Family/MapOfT ... hartid=198 demonstrating the general psycho/social effects of premaritalsex/cohabitation across a number of dimensions.

Also interesting is www.heritage.org/Research/Family/BG1535.cfm, regarding other peripheral effects of cohabitation and a sexually active unmarried lifestyle.

Also see www.heritage.org/Research/Family/BG1115.cfm

A short essay from the Howard Center's online Family In America periodical is indicative of the general thrust of much of the data:


No Substitute for Marriage

As promulgators of luminous social doctrines, the Woodstock Generation celebrated the belief that living together could provide all the benefits of wedlock without imposing all of marriage’s oppressive restrictions. This belief has now so fully insinuated itself into academic and political rhetoric that many who subscribe to it regard resistance as symptomatic of blind ignorance. But in a recent and thoroughly empirical comparison of the two social arrangements, researchers from the University of Michigan and the Centro de Estudios de Polación in Argentina conclude that when couples enter into nonmarital cohabitation, they are embarking on a far riskier and less stable life course than are peers who tie the marital knot.

To evaluate the comparative character of cohabitation and wedlock, the Michigan and Argentine scholars examined data collected between 1962 and 1993 for 906 white men and women born in 1961 in the Detroit area. Their findings offer nothing at all to support the views of those championing cohabitation as a modern equivalent to marriage. The researchers leave no doubt as to the relative fragility and impermanence of cohabitation: “In every case in which we compare a transition that denotes interrupting living with the partner, such as separation or living apart, cohabitors have significantly higher rates than their married peers.” The Michigan and Argentine researchers calculate that within two years, almost one third (32.4%) of cohabiting couples in their study had separated, compared to less than one-tenth of married couples (8.3%). Overall, the data for the study period indicate that “cohabitors have rates of separation nearly five times as high as married couples” (Odds Ratio of 4.62).

Going the other direction, the authors of the new study find that once cohabiting couples separate, they are far less likely to reconcile. “If separation occurs,” the researchers observe, “…cohabitors have rates of reconciliation only 33% as high as those who are in marital unions.”

The Michigan and Argentine scholars interpret their findings as evidence buttressing “past research that views marriage as a relationship that is qualitatively distinctive from cohabitation with a higher degree of commitment and stability than cohabitation.”

So much for the Age of Aquarius.

(Source: Georgina Binstock and Arland Thornton, “Separations, Reconciliations, and Living Apart in Cohabiting and Marital Unions,” Journal of Marriage and Family 65 [2003]: 432-443.)


And from the All About Cohabiting Before Marriage website linked to above:


THE PROBLEM OF COHABITATION

"If the family trends of recent decades are extended into the future,
the result will not only be a growing uncertainty within marriage, but
the gradual elimination of marriage in favor of casual liaisons,
oriented to adult expressiveness and self-fulfillment. The problem
with this scenario is that children will be harmed, adults probably no
happier, and the social order could collapse."


- David Popenoe in Promises to Keep.

[Image]

Cohabitation by definition is "two unmarried people of the opposite-sex living together." An alternative definition is "two roommates who are romantic partners and share living space and all the responsibilities that go with it - without a formal, legal commitment." It has been called by various terms, such as "living together," "shacking up," "cohabitation," "serial monogamy"or "living in sin." It is a halfway house for people who do not want the degree of personal and social commitment that marriage represents, at least for now (Waite & Gallagher 2000:42). The numbers have now risen to nearly 5 million. Between 1960 and 2004, the number of unmarried couples in America increased by over 1200 percent.
(See Facts Page OR Tables for Data)

We are seeing a massive cultural change where romantic love and courtship has been giving way to an altogether new alternative. We are entering a period of "cultural cluelessness" as Rutgers sociologist Barbara Dafoe Whitehead explains (Popenoe & Whitehead 1999). "Most societies have had a script and young adults have been guided through that script. And now the script is being so radically revised that nobody knows what it is anymore or people have torn it up."

The "benefits" of living together unmarried, as told by cohabitors (pers. comm.), are as follows: "sex readily available;" "sharing of rent, cooking, etc.;" "keep money separate;" "avoid responsibility of partner's debts;" "leave easy if things get too rough;" "avoid pain and stigma of divorce;" "more individual free time;" "no obligation to care for partner of their children if sick, lose their job or unable to care for themselves;" "no sexual strings attached;" "free to see others;" "you can love'em and leave 'em;" "no legal entanglements;" "no nagging;" "easy come, easy go."

Table 1. Couples Living Together: YEAR TOTAL
2004 5,080,000
2002 4,898,000
2000 4,736,000
1998 4,236,000
1997 4,000,000
1995 3,700,000
1990 2,856,000
1980 1,589,000
1970 523,000
1960 439,000
Source: U. S. Bureau of the Census, Current Population Reports, Series P20-537; America's Families and Living Arrangements: March 2000; and U. S. Bureau of the Census, Population Division, Current Population Survey, 2004 Annual Social and Economic Supplement (http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/hh-fam/cps2004).

Between 1975 and 1995, the proportion of high school seniors agreeing that "it is usually a good idea for a couple to live together before getting married in order to find out whether they really get along" skyrocketed from 35 percent to 59 percent (Popenpoe 1999).

The issue becomes even more difficult for ministry when cohabitation precedes marriage. This is the case for more than half of all couples before they walk down the aisle, making cohabitation the most common way couples in America begin their lives together (Branon 1994 & Stalcup 1997). Popular opinion suggests that living together before marriage is a good idea - a sort of trial period. There is, however, an ever-growing collection of research data that sheds a very unfavorable light on cohabitation. Marriage is one shoe you cannot try on before you buy it (McManus 1995:92). Cohabitation contributes heavily to the demise of most marriages even before they begin!

Cohabitation relationships are typically short lived. Currently half of cohabiting relationships end within a year due to the couple either becoming married or separating (Seltzer, 2000). Within the first two years approximately twenty-nine percent of cohabiting couples separate compared to only 9% of married couples. In addition, within five years from the beginning of a cohabitation relationship more than half of these relationships have ended even if the couple had gotten married during that time (Seltzer, 2000).

The extensive research involving couples who cohabited in the 1970s and 1980s strongly suggest that marriage preceded by cohabitation has a detrimental effect on marital satisfaction and places couples at a higher risk of marital dissolution (Kamp-Dush, Cohan, & Amato, 2003: 540). Depending on the specific statistical methods used it was found that couples who marry after a period of cohabitation are at a 35% to 50% greater risk of separating and/or divorcing than marriages without prior cohabitation (Seltzer, 2000; Teachman, 2002; Teachman, 2003). Cohabitation is the invisible, front end cancer of marriage!

In the 1960s and 1970s, the small numbers of cohabiting couples in America could be fairly described as "anti-marriage" (part of the anti-establishment movement). They were deliberately seeking an alternative to traditional marriage, an institution they viewed as "repressive" or "irrelevant." Much of this might be attributed to Margaret Mead (1901-1978), a prominent and extremely influential cultural anthropologist from Columbia University who suggested the concept of "trial marriage." Her field work was with Polynesianan society and her book, Coming of Age in Samoa, continues to have an major effect on its many readers. In 1983, five years after Mead had died, Derek Freeman published: Margaret Mead and Samoa: The Making and Unmaking of an Anthropological Myth, in which he challenged all of Mead's major findings. Freeman based his critique on his own four years of field experience in Samoa and on recent interviews with Mead's surviving informants. According to Freeman, these women denied much of Mead's findings and claimed that they had lied to Mead. The Intercollegiate Studies Institute recently declared Coming of Age in Samoa the "worst book of the 20th century".

Today, however, many cohabiting couples have a different outlook. Rather than "anti-marriage," it is more accurate to say that many (though certainly not all) of these couples are "anti-divorce." That is, they are so fearful of a marital breakup that they are looking to cohabitation as a "trial marriage" that will protect them from entering into a marriage that will end up in divorce just as their parents (Mattox 1997). According to the National Marriage Project of Rutgers University, young people today are more concerned with having fun and making money and less focused on forming lasting relationships that lead to marriage and raising family (Popenoe & Whitehead 1999). The report says that the young are in favor of living together as a try-out for marriage or as an alternative to marriage, believe sex is for fun and has no string attached, have a fear of divorce and see marriage (and divorce) as a potential economic liability. Although, oddly, most expect some day to meet and marry somebody who can fulfill their emotional and spiritual needs. Explanations for the rise of cohabitation include: permissive sexual morals, greater tolerance for alternative lifestyles, disenchantment with traditional dating marriage, the femisist movement, personal independence and autonomy, narcissism or 'meism,' the desire to avoid the commitment and finality of marriage (Newcomb 1983:79). (See this site's Explanation page.)

The trend toward cohabitation and away from marriage is unprecedented. "Never before in Western history has it been acceptable for unmarried couples to live together," said Andrew Cherlin, a sociologist at Johns Hopkins University, on the front page of the Washington Post. "It was unacceptable a couple decades ago. It is acceptable now" (Stalcup 1997).
_grampa75
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Re: Mormonism Manufactures Consequences for Sin

Post by _grampa75 »

maklelan wrote:
Runtu wrote:I'm not bitching, mak, but I am calling you on the idea that the church has provided resources to help parents. That's just not true. To suggest that I'd be complaining either way is not only irrelevant but highly insulting. As a parent, I would have loved to have had access to some church-approved materials regarding sexuality. But there are none, despite your earlier post.

Sure, there are unofficial resources, but given what you stated above, that the church prefers silence, is it surprising at all that parents also prefer silence?


I know it's not you bitching, but if the church was pro-active about defining a healthy sexual relationship I'd still be hear being told how bad the church is for doing it. And if parents are silent about it then they are responsible should their child develop problems that stem from a poor understanding. They know the responsibility is theirs, and they shouldn't expect to have a manual from the church that tells them how to do everything as a parent.


The work of God is too teach all people to be perfect, because that is the only way to find the true and unambiguous happiness. I can't, for the life of me, see how anyone can read the scriptures and possibly imagine it being anything else, especially when you read scriptures like this one:
Ephesians 4: 11 And he gave to some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, pastors and teachers; and some evangelists.
12. For the perfecting of the Saints. for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ;
13. Till we all come in the unity of the faith and a knowledge of the Son of God, unto aperfect man. Unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.

I can assure you that it is the plan of Satan to think otherwise, and in the end you will find there is no happiness without pure abstinence before marriage. At the time of the old testament it was a law that anyone who broke the commandment of abstinence for sexual promiscuousness, could be stoned to death, and it was not the (STONED) that we think it is today.

grampa75


Paul W. Burt
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

[

It really would be a waste of effort to disprove that "premarital sexual activity comes free of psychological and sociological consequences" because nobody in their right mind would ever believe in such an absolute. I didn't hear KimberlyAnn say it either. Maybe instead you could present evidence that "the church's teachings on morality come free of psychological and sociological consequences," if that's what you believe.


Here is what Kimberly said:

There are multitudes of people who have safe premarital sex which does not result in any negative natural consequences, or at least none as damaging as the consequences manufactured by Mormonism


Based on much research that I am aware of, this is a highly questionable statement.

As to evidence that the Church's teachings on sexuality are free of "psychological and sociological consequences", of course they're not. Are they damaging in any way? Of course not. Don't have sex before marriage, wait for that one special person and save one's sexual expression for that unique and special relationship; honer one's covenants with God and keep his commandments, avoid the problems and tragedies associated with premarital sex (the perception of deep emotional bonding when none in reality (especially with regard to many males), exists, unwanted pregnancy, child poverty etc.), perceive one's sexuality as a divine gift and one's sexual expression with one's eternal companion as a sacrament to that special and sacred relationship, yes, damaging and destructive ideas to the Oprahworld, and even more so to the Kinseyworld in which we still live to this day. Kim Gandy will have none of it, any more than Betty Friedan or Helen Gurly Brown would have any of it. The sexual revolutionists of the Sixties and Seventies were doing nothing more than sacrificing the souls of future generations to their own generative organs; erecting a massive Lingam to the great god Playboy and his consort convenience abortion on demand. Oh, I'm not saying that the arguments have not been clever and oh so very sophisticated (and it was sophistication that was glorified in the Sixties and Seventies over both intellectual rigor and moral imagination), just that they lack just as much intellectual and moral substance as similar arguments would have lacked them in ancient Greece or Rome.
_guy sajer
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Post by _guy sajer »

Coggins7 wrote:As to evidence that the Church's teachings on sexuality are free of "psychological and sociological consequences", of course they're not. Are they damaging in any way? Of course not.


There appears to be some reason to question this conclusion. Taken from another thread:

According to the article "Husband-wife Similarity in Response to Erotic Stimuli" (Journal of Personality, Vol. 43, Issue 3, p. 385-394), those with more restrictive, more negative, and more authoritarian views of sexuality are more aroused by pornographic stimuli. The article "Sexual Guilt and Religion" (The Family Coordinator, Vol. 28, Issue 3, p. 353-357) discusses a study showing that while sexual guilt is more influential than religion in predicting sexual attitudes and behavior, "the more frequently [people] attend church, the more likely they are to have high sexual guilt which interferes with their sexuality." In other words, religion can lead to sexual guilt, and sexual guilt can lead to unhealthy sexual behaviors such as compulsive masturbating and porn use.
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
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