Anti-Mormonism ineffective? So says bsix

[_Who Knows]

You said "I'm not so sure that this life should be viewed as a test so much as an exercise or a learning experience."

That's not what I thought. I thought this life was to 'prove ourselves'. To see if we could live by 'God's commandments'. To see if we could follow God through 'faith' - that's the test right? Before this life, we all knew everything, so there wasn't much of a test. So that's why we got sent here to earth, to see if we could follow God without 'seeing' everything - using faith.

If it's just a learning experience, then who's really going to fail? I believe I'm honestly following the truth. Do I pass the test? Could I actually go to the celestial kingdom? Or am i ruled out, since i've rejected the LDS church?

Can you say that someone hearing about the church is THE test? Someone reading about the church on the internet is THE test? Someone turning the missionaries away from their door because they don't like being hassled by salesmen is THE test? Or are you saying there isn't really a test, it's just about learning?

Some random quotes from LDS.org:

In our premortal life we were in God’s presence. We walked by sight.

While we lived in God’s presence, we were able to acquire and exercise a certain degree of faith, but we needed to leave His presence and have a veil drawn across our memory so we could develop the quality of faith necessary for us to lay claim upon eternal life.

To have our faith tried, then, is another major part of our purpose in leaving God’s presence and coming to earth.

Jesus Christ said, “We will make an earth whereon these may dwell; and we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them” (Abraham 3:24–25). This life, then, becomes a proving ground, “a probationary state” (Alma 12:24), a time to show that we can lay hold upon the powers of Christ’s Atonement and become sanctified, as He is.

This test of our faith determines whether or not we will “do all things whatsoever the Lord [our] God shall command [us].” To pass the mortal test we must repent of our sins, receive essential ordinances, make and keep covenants with God, and endure in righteousness to the end.

The true test of mortality is to see if we will accept the Savior wholeheartedly, apply His atoning blood in our lives, do “all we can do” (2 Nephi 25:23) to keep His commandments, and, finally, through His grace be made perfect in Him (see Moroni 10:32).

I just can't seem to get the 2 to fit together - that this life is a 'test' of our faith, yet most people who've lived on the earth won't even get the chance to take that test - that's a big reason for being here isn't it?

And if this life isn't really a test, then how does that square with the LDS plan of salvation?

[_asbestosman]

And if this life isn't really a test, then how does that square with the LDS plan of salvation?

God probably already knows who will make it and who won't, so what's there to prove? I think "prove" ourselves has more to do with experiencing and in some sense improving or exercising to become better.

As for accepting or rejecting the truth, I think there are various degrees of it with varying consequences for that person. I have heard many times that the direction you are travelling is much more important than where you end up. That isn't to say that deathbed repentance works because it doesn't -- at least not when such has been your plan all along or has changed only becuase of fear of death. The scriptures tell us that this life is the time to repent because the same spirit will rise with us to the next world.

This world affords us opportunities for growth that we cannot have otherwise.

[_Who Knows]

Well, your take on this is quite different from what I was ever taught, and different from what i read about the plan of salvation at LDS.org.

I guess that's how you get around the problem. Where there's a will, there's a way...

[_Jason Bourne]

Yes, Utah Mormons tend to be a "different" variety of LDS. It seems to be primarily social for them. If they do not care about the theological arguments against it, it might be because they really don't care about theology at all. It is all about getting along with their social group.

It's probably the case for those who have grown up in the church. And Utah just happens to have a ton of those.

Those who have converted probably actually cared about the theology enough to join the church, so the reverse would probably be true.

Those who grew up in the church probably just never care one way or the other - it's just the lifestyle they grew up with and are comfortable with. I can't tell you how many times I heard in the MTC "I never had a REAL testimony until I got here to the MTC" (in other words "I didn't really care until I came here"). And even then, I wonder how many of them were just phonies - saying it because everyone else was saying it. I did. ;)

Two close friends that I have worked with closely in my ward in various capacities are an interesting read on this. The first was talking about being challenged by someone about LDS polygamy. He told me about this and gave the person the pat answer-not many did it, and it was because the poor women needed help due to lack of good men. When I laid out some of the history, and mind you, I did not go into nitty gritty, he was surprised. I lifetime members, he said he never knew any of these details and was a bit surprised. But he felt all was well cause he has a testimony. I did not want to challenge him any further so I let it go. He is not a Utah Mormon but is a lifetime member.

The other fellow, is more close and we have talked pretty extensively. I have told him much about LDS history that he never knew. He is also highly critical of other religions thinking they are all fluff and no action. I have tried to teach him some of what other faiths really believe-a correct idea about the trinity, grace in reformed theology, Calvinism vs. Aryanism. But essentially he says he knows the Church is true and has no desire to explore things further.

I am ok with this. The Church worked for him. His family joined the Church when he was 7. Neither are Utah Mormons.

But I am doubtful any anti LDS literature will impact them because they will not pursue it. They do not want to invest the time learning about our Church history or what is behind the religious ideas of others.

So there are those that are insulated. I could give a number of such example but need to run now.

[_truth dancer]

Hi WK...

What good is this 'test' if > 99% of the people who come to earth, don't even really get to take it?

The LDS response might be something like 'well that's why we have work for the dead - so that everyone will get the opportunity in the next life'. But then, can we really say this life is the test then?

It just doesn't add up logically.

hopefully I explained what I was thinking well enough.

This was actually something that bothered me for a long time.

The reality is, there has been something like 60 billion people who have ever inhabited the earth (If I recall correctly that is going back about 100,000 years or so).... and this represents 2/3 of the sprits that God created. Lets say there will be another 10 billion before the second coming which makes 100,000,000,000 spirits. Only a few million who will ever take the test.

The idea of creating this whole universe and 100 billion spirits, the world, the Book of Mormon, the plan... all of it, for a tiny, little, itsy bitsy group of folks is truly astounding.

The idea of creating this sort of plan where this little group is going to do the work for the rest of the 60 billion people (who made it here) just makes no sense whatsoever.

Then, the fact that the four covenants made in the temple just make no sense whatsoever for the folks waiting in the next realm further makes the whole thing kind of ridiculous... in my opinion!

Anyway... the whole "plan/test" idea just never made much sense to me.

:-(

~dancer~

[_Runtu]

And if this life isn't really a test, then how does that square with the LDS plan of salvation?

God probably already knows who will make it and who won't, so what's there to prove? I think "prove" ourselves has more to do with experiencing and in some sense improving or exercising to become better.

I used to make that same statement, but the idea that it's not a test is pretty well contradicted by the scripture:

25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;
26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

It's to "see if they will do all things." It's not an "experiencing" and "improving" kind of test.

[_asbestosman]

I used to make that same statement, but the idea that it's not a test is pretty well contradicted by the scripture:

25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;
26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

It's to "see if they will do all things." It's not an "experiencing" and "improving" kind of test.

While I suppose one could make the case that it was a test we must pass, I still think that scirpture fits within a larger view of giving us an opportunity to learn to obey in the specific circumstance where we do not see "Big Brother" watching over us. I think it allows us to develop.

I really don't think the test idea makes scriptural or logical sense once one figures in scriptures about God's omniscience, "he knoweth all things, and there is not anything save he knows it" (2 Nephi 9:20).

[_Who Knows]

I really don't think the test idea makes scriptural or logical sense once one figures in scriptures about God's omniscience, "he knoweth all things, and there is not anything save he knows it" (2 Nephi 9:20).

? What?

What about agency, choice, etc.? Just because god knows what we'll choose, doesn't mean that we're not still free to choose. Right? We're not here for god to see what we chose, we're here to actually make the choice? Right?

(i'm not saying i believe any of this, but that's how i understand it).

[_asbestosman]

What about agency, choice, etc.? Just because god knows what we'll choose, doesn't mean that we're not still free to choose. Right? We're not here for god to see what we chose, we're here to actually make the choice? Right?

But God, being all-knowing, would be able to answer hypothetical questions without them necessarily being realized just as I know that if I chop off my leg, it won't grow back even though I plan to prevent this from happening. We are here to exercise agency, not to make sure God's prescient powers can answer questions of future worthiness.

[_beastie]

But God, being all-knowing, would be able to answer hypothetical questions without them necessarily being realized just as I know that if I chop off my leg, it won't grow back even though I plan to prevent this from happening. We are here to exercise agency, not to make sure God's prescient powers can answer questions of future worthiness.

Free will truly does become meaningless under this construct.

This is a very old conundrum religion has faced for centuries - God's prescient powers seems to negate the idea of free will.

Believers often use the example of a parent knowing a child well enough to predict behavior. However, in reality, a child can always surprise a parent in the end, and not fulfill private predictions. But God's predictions, if he is omniscient, cannot be so defied. Hence, no free will. It's already been decided.

This is why some religions dealt with the dilemma by coming up with ideas of predestination. Others are basically burying their heads in the sand.