PBS Mormons Part 2 Thread

[_beastie]

I was surprised to hear believers so openly admit that it is an LDS teaching that "as man is, God once was, and as God is, man may become". They didn't actually use the couplet, but referred to the idea several times.

I think that LDS who have grown up LDS and are largely surrounded by other LDS may be somewhat naïve about the impact of this one teaching alone on mainstream Christianity. They find it absolutely shocking and heretical.

[_Polygamy Porter]

The silent reformation of Mormonism is underway.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

The silent reformation of Mormonism is underway.

Possibly. My fear is that a reformation/retrenchment could be on the way to keep members in line.

[_Some Schmo]

I sometimes get the sense that people who believe in the sort of God who will punish nonbelievers in some significant way, say with eternal torment, being divided from your loved ones, never getting to see your "Heavenly Parents" again, are willing and happy to believe in that sort of God because, on some level, they feel as if nonbelievers find them stupid and silly. So, in a way, it comforts them to know that, in the end, they'll be able to say "oh YEAH??? HA!!! Now you KNOW, don't you??? Sucks to be YOU now!!" I know that sounds extreme, but I have sensed this from EVs who dwell on the aspect of eternal torment for those who reject their beliefs, and I sense it from LDS when they talk about that "grand and spacious" building with all the mockers.

I really believe that the type of God people are able to believe in tells us more about the people than any godbeing.

Maybe a God exists, I don't know. But if a God exists like the LDS and EVs imagine, in my opinion, it is an amoral God who plays games with human beings for his own entertainment.

I really think a lot of religious belief is rooted in a person's sense of their own impotence, and the comfort of thinking on some level, "God will get you for me."

[_Blixa]

I think you're right Schmo. I always find the "revenge" factor interesting in religious belief...

[_truth dancer]

Hi Rollo....

Possibly. My fear is that a reformation/retrenchment could be on the way to keep members in line.

Could you elaborate on this a bit? What are you thinking?

~dancer~

[_Rollo Tomasi]

Hi Rollo....

Possibly. My fear is that a reformation/retrenchment could be on the way to keep members in line.

Could you elaborate on this a bit? What are you thinking?

Some of the comments by GA's in the show about members' questioning and/or dissenting made me shudder (especially those from Oaks). Also, reading the transcripts of Holland's and Jensen's interviews on the PBS website gave me the feeling there is no middle ground on Church history -- it's either their way (traditional orthodoxy) or the highway. Jensen even went so far as to say that one could be ex'ed for advocating the right of gays to marry (talk about mixing church and state!) or to challenge the traditional historicity of the Book of Mormon (and how Joseph Smith said he got it). With the Internet exposing facts the Church has generally avoided, I can easily see the Brethren pushing back with a more stringent form of orthodoxy expected of the members. Here's a quote from the Jensen interview that I found particulary troubling (bold mine for emphasis):

Where an intellectual, I think, can get into difficulty is when that intellectual person takes a position and begins either to attack the general leader or the local leaders of the church or begin to attack the basic doctrine of the church and does that publicly .... That's, at least in my humble view of it, probably the definition of apostasy. At that point a person in that situation would be counseled and lovingly invited to be at least quiet ... if not orthodox ....

As we've all experienced on bb's like FAIR, many LDS use the word "attack" as synonymous with one's simply raising/discussing an issue they may find unorthodox, and Jensen's 'loving' invitation for such a person to "be at least quiet" is very telling, in my opinion. I hope I'm wrong, but I see the Church in general becoming less tolerant of anyone who dares question or discuss issues that the Brethren don't want discussed at all.

[_Jason Bourne]

1) Songs about going on a mission sung by a bunch of small kids.

Yep. A favorite primary song.

2) An interview by someone saying it is de facto mandatory to go on a mission in order to survive in his culture, to get married, to keep parents respect.

Yep. I used to tell me girls only marry an RM. I do not tell them that anymore.

3) How to do all kinds of things to be a be better missionary.

It is a great training program. An RM can use it in life after mission to be very successful as well.

4) Footage of missionaries bugging the hell out of people...ad nauseum.

I don't think most missionaries are that pesky.

5) Someone saying it's expected from age 4 or 5 that he would go on a mission.

Try from birth for a boy.

6) Saying that more than 50% of converts go inactive and that conversions have slowed over years---"church is good at finding converts, but not good at helping them on their spiritual journey" (or something like that)

This is so true though the Church is trying hard to fix this. Pres Hinckley did a special training fireside some years ago on retaining members. A LARGE amount of time is spent in weekly PEC meetings to discuss efforts to retain new converts. My ward puts HUGE efforts into this. However I think going slower and letting investigators attend more and make some commitments anode demonstrate them before baptism would help. The push is still to baptize fairly fast. Where I live a new member need attend only twice before they can be baptized.

8) Story of a missionary being told his mother died (by a written note from the Stake President---"your mother died...call home")

Small correction, it was the local Branch Pres that left the note not SP.

9) dangers to missionaries in hostile places (kidnappings, torture, killings...going to tough places, bad water, dangers)

Life is full of dangers yet I have read the mortality rate for missionaries is less then that of their peers not on missions.

10) Tal Bachman on Argentina mission (see number #9 ie tough place) he said he would "willingly be a suicide bomber" he was that into being a missionary---(I thought that was over the top in this day and age but ouch!) Great sound byte about not letting his kids go on a mission for something false!!!

TAL's statement was stupid, plain and simple.

11) an old black lady bearing her testimony who was a former drug user who changed her life around (good for her!!!)....she called it the LSD Church ("that's the church for me") I thought that was funny---moving part

Amazing. The LDS Church actually does benefit some people. There are hundreds of thousands if not millions of similar stories and changed lives.

[_Dr. Shades]

As we've all experienced on bb's like FAIR, many LDS use the word "attack" as synonymous with one's simply raising/discussing an issue they may find unorthodox, and Jensen's 'loving' invitation for such a person to "be at least quiet" is very telling, in my opinion. I hope I'm wrong, but I see the Church in general becoming less tolerant of anyone who dares question or discuss issues that the Brethren don't want discussed at all.

Hmm. If that's the case, then what do you make of Rough Stone Rolling, the fact that it's sold in Deseret Book, and the fact that Bushman hasn't been disciplined?

[_Jason Bourne]

I'm an atheist, so I don't believe any of this is going to occur after death, anyway (although obviously it offers great comfort to us to imagine it does and some situations, like the young women with the heart disease, are so heartbreaking that it seems merciful to have some notion like this to cling to) - so what bothers me isn't that I'm going to be forcibly divided from my family, or submitted to involuntary divorce (from children, too) as I've called it in the past, it's rather that believers are happy to believe that I would be.

It bothers me in the same way when EVs I know are happy to believe - or at least able to believe without great difficulties, and believe it to be just in some way - that I'm going to go to hell and burn for all eternity because I didn't believe the right thing. It's what it says about us, as human beings, that bothers me about that all.

nobody is HAPPY about it. They want you to have the RIGHT belief, whatever that is, so you can be with your family or not go to hell. At least the Mormon idea of an after life sure gives everyone the most chances to get the belief right.