TBMs and MMM

[_Analytics]

Perhaps what actually happened was a “Crimson Tide” scenario (in Crimson Tide, a nuclear submarine got an order to launch some nuclear missiles. The sub then lost communication with HQ. There was some evidence that the HQ cancelled the order, but whether or not the order stood or had been rescinded couldn’t be determined. There was then a standoff and a mutiny on the sub, with some officers believing that they should go ahead and launch, and others believing that they shouldn’t launch).

I think Iron County militia had orders, or at the very least explicit clearance, to violently engage the Fancher party. But some of them wanted to confirm the orders with the decider. The reason Brigham Young sent the messenger back so urgently with the order to let them go is because he knew that without such an order, they wouldn’t let them go. Brigham Young seemed to know what they were capable of.

It’s hard to imagine that the Iron County Militia would have killed the Fancher Party if they didn’t believe that that is what Brigham Young wanted them to do. And it’s hard to imagine that that is what they thought Brigham Young wanted unless Brigham Young had ordered it.

There is a certain level of prophet worship in the church. Wanting to believe that Brigham Young had clean hands is an consequence of that, IMHO.

[_Runtu]

I think Iron County militia had orders, or at the very least explicit clearance, to violently engage the Fancher party. But some of them wanted to confirm the orders with the decider. The reason Brigham Young sent the messenger back so urgently with the order to let them go is because he knew that without such an order, they wouldn’t let them go. Brigham Young seemed to know what they were capable of.

It’s hard to imagine that the Iron County Militia would have killed the Fancher Party if they didn’t believe that that is what Brigham Young wanted them to do. And it’s hard to imagine that that is what they thought Brigham Young wanted unless Brigham Young had ordered it.

There is a certain level of prophet worship in the church. Wanting to believe that Brigham Young had clean hands is an consequence of that, IMHO.

I don't believe Brigham Young "ordered" them to attack the Fancher party, but I think you raise a good point. They wouldn't have sent a messenger had they not believed that Salt Lake might possibly want them to attack. And had they believed that BY would have told them to leave the Fanchers alone, they would have waited until the messenger got back. And the urgency with which BY sent the messenger says just what you said it does.

Speaking of MMM, Pahoran just launched another classic hate-filled diatribe (this time against Theophilus) on this topic. Simply not to be missed. It's RM in rare form.

[_Seven]

Why did Brigham Young need to send a message to NOT KILL innocent men, women and children????

[_beastie]

beastie wrote:

Quote:

No, I don't think they did. I think they wanted to do it and quickly conjured up a false god that fit in their own image. People do it all the time.



Why conjure up a "false god" if they knew they weren't doing God's will?



Because someone wanted to do what he did.

Nehor,

Think about what you're saying. You are saying these people did NOT believe they were doing God's will and then conjured up a false god.

Your answer "because someone wanted to do what he did" makes no sense.

People do what they want to do all the time without conjuring up false gods. There was a reason they "conjured up a false god" in the first place, instead of just doing what they wanted to do. What was the reason?

[_The Nehor]

beastie wrote:

Quote:

No, I don't think they did. I think they wanted to do it and quickly conjured up a false god that fit in their own image. People do it all the time.



Why conjure up a "false god" if they knew they weren't doing God's will?



Because someone wanted to do what he did.

Nehor,

Think about what you're saying. You are saying these people did NOT believe they were doing God's will and then conjured up a false god.

Your answer "because someone wanted to do what he did" makes no sense.

People do what they want to do all the time without conjuring up false gods. There was a reason they "conjured up a false god" in the first place, instead of just doing what they wanted to do. What was the reason?

Because what they wanted to do contrasted with their conscience. In that case having 'God' on your side dulls the guilt.

[_beastie]

Because what they wanted to do contrasted with their conscience. In that case having 'God' on your side dulls the guilt.

It only dulls the guilt if you actually believe God is on your side.

[_Analytics]

Because what they wanted to do contrasted with their conscience. In that case having 'God' on your side dulls the guilt.

It only dulls the guilt if you actually believe God is on your side.

I was just reading My Bodage and My Freedom by Frederick Douglass, and in one section he talks about what happened when his master found Jesus, and also about the various pastors who feasted at his house while he starved his slaves. This post made me think that a quote from that book might be a good sig.

[_The Nehor]

Because what they wanted to do contrasted with their conscience. In that case having 'God' on your side dulls the guilt.

It only dulls the guilt if you actually believe God is on your side.

I was just reading My Bodage and My Freedom by Frederick Douglass, and in one section he talks about what happened when his master found Jesus, and also about the various pastors who feasted at his house while he starved his slaves. This post made me think that a quote from that book might be a good sig.

To quote C.S. Lewis:

"If conversion to Christianity makes no improvement in a man's outward actions - if he continues to be just as snobbish or spiteful or envious or ambitious as he was before - then I think we must suspect that his 'conversion' was largely imaginary; and after one's original conversion, every time one thinks one has made an advance, that is the test to apply. Fine feelings, new insights, greater interest in 'religion' mean nothing unless they make our actual behavior better; just as in an illness 'feeling better' is not much good if the thermometer shows that your temperature is still going up."

"In God you come up against something which is in every respect immeasurably superior to yourself. Unless you know God as that - and, therefore, know yourself as nothing in comparison - you do not know God at all. As long as you are proud you cannot know God. A proud man is always looking down on things and people; and, of course, as long as you are looking down, you cannot see something that is above you.

That raises a terrible question. How is it that people who are quite obviously eaten up with pride can say they believe in God and appear to themselves very religious? I am afraid it means they are worshipping an imaginary God. They theoretically admit themselves to be nothing in the presence of this phantom God, but we are really all the time imagining how He approves of them and thinks them far better than ordinary people; that is, they pay a pennyworth of imaginary humility to Him and get out of it a pound's worth of Pride towards their fellow-men. I suppose it was of those people Christ was thinking when He said that some would preach about Him and cast out devils in His name, only to be told at the end of the world that He had never known them. And any of us at any moment may be in this death-trap. Luckily, we have a test. Whenever we find that our religious life is making us feel that we are good - above all, that we are better than someone else - I think we may be sure that we are being acted on, not by God, but by the devil. The real test of being in the presence of God is, that you either forget about yourself altogether or see yourself as a small, dirty object. It is better to forget about yourself altogether"

I've fallen into this trap and this is in my experience the most evil use to which you can put God to. Using him as a justification.

[_beastie]

Nehor,

Your replies here indicate you are answering a different question than the one I asked. I did not ask if you believe the killers were doing God's will, nor did I ask if they really were doing God's will. I asked if, in your opinion, the killers believed they were doing God's will.

People don't conjure up false gods to appease their conscience and say, hey, I've conjured up a false god to appease my conscience! I know this isn't the real god. I know I'm not doing God's will.

They actually believe the "God" they have conjured up is the real God, and they are doing God's will. Otherwise, none of what you are saying makes any sense.

[_beastie]

If religion had any effect on his character at all, it made him more cruel and hateful in all his ways. The natural wickedness of his heart had not been removed, but only reinforced, by the profession of religion. Do I judge him harshly? God forbid. Facts are facts.

-Frederick Douglass

That is an excellent sig line.