What is the Curse of Cain?

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_Coggins7
_Emeritus
Posts: 3679
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:25 am

Post by _Coggins7 »

Kulturekampf means ideological struggle in general, not secular vs. religious squabble. It's been used most recently in the U.S. in reference to consecrative attempts to wipe out what they see as liberal excess, in particular the rhetorical assault on multiculturalism, enlarging the academic canon and the entire trope of "PC crimes."


Here's the American Heritage Dictionary definiition:

1. The struggle (1871–1883) between the Roman Catholic Church and the German government under Bismarck for control over school and ecclesiastical appointments and civil marriage.
2. A conflict between secular and religious authorities: “The 1920s proved to be the focal decade in the Kulturkampf of American Protestantism” (Richard Hofstadter).


My Websters New 20th Century Dictionary uses only the first definition. I've found know definition of it as "ideological struggle generally".

The left has not attempted to "enlarge the academic canon" That could be considered something very near intellectually dishonesty. What they have attempted to do is marginalize the traditional canon and replace it with marginal or tertiary authors from cultures peripheral to the study of western civilization (including a plethora of authors who are openly hostile to American and European civilization and especially to liberal democracy and capitalism) It is their hostility to western, and particularly, American civilization, that drives this program, not a desire to "enlarge" the western canon, which they, for all intents and purposed (according to some 25 years or so of their own writings and speeches), despise.

PC crimes are not anyone's trope, they have been a salient feature of the Left for more than a century and a core technique of the post Sixties Left in enforcing intellectual orthodoxy within those institutions they control (which is, of course, most).


Except for the intentional infection via contaminated blankets, a method used more than once by both the British and the U.S. military (the letters of Lord Amherst are quite interesting in this regard).


You see Blixa, you've swallowed the propaganda whole. You have been indoctrinated, not educated, and you've allowed it to happen of your own free will. There is not a shred of historical evidence regarding the blankets; this is pure conjecture on the part of academic leftists intent on smearing the entire western cultural milieu for which they have no documentary evidence.

As much of the present anti-American, ant-western ideological mythology surrounding the alleged blanket incident stems from the writings of the now disgraced academic fraud Ward Churchill, a little background would be apropos:


Churchill’s tale of genocide by means of biological warfare is shocking, but other historians disagree that it ever happened. It is well-established that a smallpox outbreak did occur in 1837, and that it was probably carried into the region on board the steamboat St. Peter.[10]

None of the sources that Churchill cites make any mention of “a military infirmary…quarantined for smallpox.” None of the sources Churchill cites make any mention of U.S. Army soldiers even being in the area of the pandemic, much less being involved with it in any way. Churchill’s sources—in particular a journal kept by the fur trader Francis Chardon—make it clear that Fort Clark was not an Army garrison. It was a remote trading outpost that was privately owned and built by the American Fur Company, and manned by a handful of white traders.[11] It was not an Army fort, nor did it contain soldiers. Not being an Army fort, it did not contain a “post surgeon” who told Indians to “scatter” and spread the disease.

The only government employee who can be documented as present in the vicinity of the trading post was the local Indian Agent, who according to Chardon did not distribute blankets or anything else at the time of the pandemic, “as he has nothing to give his red children.”[12] The government agent functioned to serve the interests of the trading company, and had no independent incentive to infect the Indians.[13]

Journals and letters written by the fur traders who did man Fort Clark make it clear that they were appalled by the epidemic, in part because they had Indian wives and children and were thus a part of the Indian community.[14] The traders also had economic interests in keeping the Indians healthy. The trader Jacob Halsey—who himself contracted the smallpox—lamented that “the loss to the company by the introduction of this malady will be immense in fact incalculable as our most profitable Indians have died.”[15] The traders would not seem to have any incentive to wage biological warfare on their own families and their “most profitable Indians”, much less put their own lives at risk.

Churchill claims that vaccine was withheld by “the army”, citing Stearns & Stearns.[16] What the Stearns actually wrote was that “great care was exercised in the attempt to eliminate the transfer of the smallpox” by the traders, and that “a physician was dispatched for the sole purpose of vaccinating the affected tribes while the pestilence was at its height.” It is difficult to see how Churchill could have derived his reading of events from the Stearns.[17]

Churchill argues that the “post surgeon” ordered the Indians to scatter, thus strategically spreading the disease. But an eyewitness on the scene—the trader Jacob Halsey—complained in a letter that:

I could not prevent [the Indians] from camping round the Fort—they have caught the disease, notwithstanding I have never allowed an Indian to enter the Fort, or any communication between them & the Sick; but I presume the air was infected with it…my only hope is that the cold weather will put a stop to this disease…pray send some vaccine.[18]

This letter is printed as an appendix to Chardon’s journal, the only primary source that Churchill cites in support of his story.

What if the U.S. Army had been active in the region? Given the opportunity, would Army officers have had any motive to use biological warfare against the Mandans? Five years earlier, in 1832, Congress had passed an act and appropriated funds to establish a program for inoculating Indians on the Missouri River.[19] Given this Congressional mandate to protect Indians from smallpox, given the lack of hostilities between the U.S. military and the Mandans or any other Plains Indians at that time, and given the military’s lack of presence in the area of the Mandans at the time, Churchill’s version of events does not seem plausible, even in the context of counterfactual speculation.

Churchill argues that the disease’s vector was smallpox blankets given as gifts by the Army. None of the sources that Churchill cites mentions gift blankets. Available evidence indicates that the disease’s vector was either the trader Jacob Halsey himself, who arrived on the St. Peter already infected, or an Arikira Indian woman who also arrived on the steamboat in the same condition.[20] The primary source that Churchill cites makes it clear that the local traders considered the disease to be entirely accidental, and as unwelcome by the local whites as by the Indians.


http://www.hal.lamar.edu/~browntf/Churchill1.htm

And for a much more extensive treatment:

http://www.plagiary.org/smallpox-blankets.pdf

http://hnn.us/articles/7302.html

http://listlva.lib.va.us/cgi-bin/Washington.exe ... IST&P=7068

You see, the evidence for this claim is quite weak; purely circumstantial and supported only by a few letters in which the idea is floated between a few people. This is your entire support for the assertion that something actually happened, for which you have no direct evidence at all. This is basically as tenuous as the evidence for George Washington's adultly or the Jefferson/Hemmings claims.

Yes Blixa, you bring hoary leftist tropes here and accuse me of genuflecting to tropes. This is what leftist ideology does to the human mind; removes even the last particle of rationality and replaces within the eviscerated husk an edifice of hubris driven ideological shibboleths supported by precisely the kind of evidentially fuzzy historical urban legends such as the one you have tried for foist here.


This is only one of the many inaccuracies in your statements about early american history. All you know is anti-PC backlash revisionism. Try tearing yourself away from your neocon magazines and immerse yourself in the Western Americana collection at the Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library at Yale for a while.


Ohhhhhhh...I'm impressed. And if I were to do this, I would find out precisely what (except that the folks, like Ward Chruchill and Howard Zinn, from whence you get most of your historical knowledge, are nothing but intellectual hacks)?

Interesting jab at those bloodsucking Jews here too Blixa. Expose some more of the truth about yourself for us will you?
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Sam Harris
_Emeritus
Posts: 2261
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:35 am

Post by _Sam Harris »

Coggins7 wrote:
No one here hates people of other colors but yourself. And that has been pointed out plenty of times. Again, take your meds, society is starting to fear you again.



Evidence please?


Go to his profile, folks...follow his threads. 'Nuff said.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_Sam Harris
_Emeritus
Posts: 2261
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:35 am

Re: White-Black Intermarriage, Go Team!

Post by _Sam Harris »

ajax18 wrote:
GIMR wrote:
Ubbo-Sathla wrote:Well, I say, that as long as Mormons are 100% willing to participate in and support interracial marriages, they can't be accused of being racists. Ya just can't do that.

Only people who discriminate primarily o n the basis of race on issues of universal social significance like slavery, (full) church membership, and marriage can rightly be suspected of harboring racists sentiments. Even if they weren't racist to begin with, institutional requirements to treat races differently will develop personal discrimination. It may not be "hatred" of a race; it may be hateless discrimination. It's effect will be the same.


Can you say for sure that the church supports interracial marriages today? If so, why is it that every black female LDS that I know personally is unmarried? I was in a very large singles ward when I was LDS, and every other female of every other race in that ward dated, they pumped out marriages....even interracial ones. But the five black women had two choices: Ghana or non-member.

Did we do this to ourselves?


No you didn't do this to yourselves. It's about other individuals and what they want. They have their agency. I didn't feel like I was treated fairly by the Church during the dating process as well.

I thought Pres. Faust did point out that the brethren don't control the beating of men's and women's hearts. Marriage is about what each individual chooses. I can't really see it as a Church doctrinal issue when marriage between all races are solemized in the temple. Unless we ascribed to arranged marriages, I don't really see much more the Church could do about this. People get poor treatment from the opposite gender all the time. Unless the Church upholds them in their behavior and tells them its ok to treat people like this, I don't really see where the Brethren can be blamed for this.


Why is it then, that outside of the church, I never had problems dating whomever I wished? I never saw dating outside my race as an issue, because I had started my dating sojourn doing that. My family used to tease me about it relentlessly, saying I didn't like black men...but I just didn't like the types they brought around me. I've never been limited in the men I dated before the LDS church. It never occurred to me in the beginning that there would be a problem dating a white Mormon man. And now, outside the church, the impediment of race doesn't exist once again...as it should be.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_Gazelam
_Emeritus
Posts: 5659
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:06 am

Post by _Gazelam »

Sethbag wrote:Gazelam, you talk as if you believe that Noah's children are in fact the ancestors of every single human being alive today. You talk as if you believe that the Flood happened as depicted in Genesis, as a global, worldwide catastrophic flood that wiped out everyone but those on the Ark.

The Flood didn't happen that way, whether or not the story in Genesis is based on an actual, local flood or not. The human race today is not all descended from a guy named Noah and his family from a few thousand years ago. Look at the evidence, man! It's there, it's real, and it utterly contradicts these beliefs of yours. Why do you kick against the pricks of actual, physical evidence to hold onto what is no more than mythology?



If you don't believe in the Flood, then you have no faith in Christ. Matt. 24:37-39
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_moksha
_Emeritus
Posts: 22508
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:42 pm

Post by _moksha »

Coggins7 wrote:Actually the curse of Cain was that the descendents of Cain would be denied free, universal health care, free, federally funded access to family planning services, free or reduced school lunch, A guaranteed annual income, racial preference in government hiring and college admission, low interest loans at below market rates, a chicken in every pot, a condom in every pocket, RU-486 in every purse, Nacho cheese for all, and all of their children would be left behind.


So are you saying that Americans are the direct descendants of Cain? Is that part of our collective Patriarchal Blessing?
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_moksha
_Emeritus
Posts: 22508
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:42 pm

Post by _moksha »

Gazelam wrote:If you don't believe in the Flood, then you have no faith in Christ. Matt. 24:37-39


Would believing that water rose high on the flood plain between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers be sufficient? Besides relying on your quote, what does one have to do with the other anyway?
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_Gazelam
_Emeritus
Posts: 5659
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:06 am

Post by _Gazelam »

moksha wrote:
Gazelam wrote:If you don't believe in the Flood, then you have no faith in Christ. Matt. 24:37-39


Would believing that water rose high on the flood plain between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers be sufficient? Besides relying on your quote, what does one have to do with the other anyway?


You have to read the scripture Mok.

Christ states that the flood as recorded in the scriptures took place, meaning that only Noah and his family lived, and all life was taken from the earth. If Christ is testifying of Noah, then that means that to deny the flood is to deny the testimony of the Savior. The flood was global according to the scriptures.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Ubbo-Sathla
_Emeritus
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:58 pm

Re: White-Black Intermarriage, Go Team!

Post by _Ubbo-Sathla »

Mercury and GIMR, you saw through my ploy! Yes, I am "painfully" aware of the attitude about race. I believe it is engendered by those pasty white men in their sunless temple square offices. I believe most Mormons would have no problem living next to or having their children marry people of (most?) other races. But there is a religious attitude fostered by a history of believing "Negroes" are spiritually inferior to "Blancoes". Or "Blacks" and "Whites", if those are "better" words, but that causes confusion about the Melanesians, doesn't it? "Black" but not "Negroid".
"Therefore, what manner of men ought ye to be?
Verily I say unto you, even as I am." - 3 Nephi 27
"And now, because ye are compelled to be humble
blessed are ye" - Alma 32:13
_Mercury
_Emeritus
Posts: 5545
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:14 pm

Post by _Mercury »

Gazelam wrote:
moksha wrote:
Gazelam wrote:If you don't believe in the Flood, then you have no faith in Christ. Matt. 24:37-39


Would believing that water rose high on the flood plain between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers be sufficient? Besides relying on your quote, what does one have to do with the other anyway?


You have to read the scripture Mok.

Christ states that the flood as recorded in the scriptures took place, meaning that only Noah and his family lived, and all life was taken from the earth. If Christ is testifying of Noah, then that means that to deny the flood is to deny the testimony of the Savior. The flood was global according to the scriptures.


So when you deride polygamy do you also deny the testimony of most early Mormon presidents?

Or is that "different"?
And crawling on the planet's face
Some insects called the human race
Lost in time
And lost in space...and meaning
_Gazelam
_Emeritus
Posts: 5659
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:06 am

Mercury

Post by _Gazelam »

So when you deride polygamy do you also deny the testimony of most early Mormon presidents?

Or is that "different"?


Are you addressing me? I personally believe Polygamy to be a true doctrine, and would agree with you in that you can't deride polygamy and still accept the Mormon faith.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
Post Reply