A Different MMM Thread

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_Inconceivable
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Post by _Inconceivable »

The Nehor wrote:
The difference between Haun's Mill and MMM is one of scale, not of horrific decisions made.



Hi Nehor, great thread.

There is a vast difference:

The Haun's Mill incident was committed by a mob of the great unwashed and wicked heathen. This moment in history confirmed Mormon fears that civilization was evil and capable of the most darkest of deeds. This was reasoning that they ought to flee to the Rocky Mountains and build a city where such things would not happen.

MMM was committed by those that prophessed to separate themselves from the wicked. Not just by miles but by their adherence to righteous principles.

I guess no one goes to the celestial forum anymore (although I'd rate it a PG-13):

Wild Kingdom:

http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/vi ... php?t=2347
Last edited by Guest on Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
_Inconceivable
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Post by _Inconceivable »

This is in reference to what I am talking about from the Wild Kingdom thread:

(Inconceivable)
Gaz,

You absolutely missed the entire point of the thread...

..I do not speak of the "fallen world" or the "spook alley" that you refer to. I speak only of the atrocities commanded
by your God and administered by your brother in Christ - the "righteous", "chosen" and "covenant people of the Lord".

..I am overcome with the difficulty of relating to a God that would command such horrific acts by the best of His children.

..Where could you possibly go with this argument without endicting and convicting even a latter day prophet or his servants?


(Gaz)

To properly view this you have to remember the church being compared to a vineyard. Sometimes parts are cut off and thrown away.
Other times a bad part is removed and a new part grafted in...

This is no different than the times the Lord comanded the children of Israel to cleanse a place for them to dwell. Fertile ground
had to be made, and abominations destroyed.

(Inconceivable)

Gaz, you are a Mormon and according to your belief so was (and of course is) Moses, Noah, Jesus and Brigham Young among others.
Your God is the same "yesterday, today and forever".

A time will come when your prophet will command you or your children to cut off, wipe clean, throw away or otherwise cleanse
a portion of His vineyard. You will be commanded to engage or otherwise assist in taking the lives of men, women and children
that are not of your faith. To refuse would be to deny your faith, coming out in open rebellion against your church, your prophet
and your God.

There may be a number of your pals that may even pay the ultimate sacrifice for their obedience (including yourself) - most likely
because even the wicked will attempt to kill you to preserve their lives and those things they love - whether it be vices, loved ones or both.

No doubt, if you die in battle there is a mansion prepared for you as a valiant servant of the Lord in His highest kingdom. The women you
will be sealed to will most assuredly be virgins.

If there is a God, my hope and prayer would be that the detonator connected to the backpack worn by any clown that believes this will
explode prematurely while they are sitting on the john.
_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

Inconceivable wrote:Hi Nehor, great thread.

There is a vast difference:

The Haun's Mill incident was committed by a mob of the great unwashed and wicked heathen. This moment in history confirmed Mormon fears that civilization was evil and capable of the most darkest of deeds. This was reasoning that they ought to flee to the Rocky Mountains and build a city where such things would not happen.


I don't see that being a difference unless you're being ironic here.

If you are serious a quick reading of the Doctrine and Covenants shows that they failed. They failed to build the ideal community in Ohio, they botched their shot at Zion in Missouri, and screwed up Illinois. They fled to the Rocky Mountains and hauled Babylon there with them. If LDS ever get an overdeveloped sense of the righteousness of their ancestors it's fairly easy to open part of their canon and be disabused by God's viewpoint.

The Saints blew their shot at building Zion in the wilderness and failed miserably at Consecration. I have my doubts as to whether we could now do any better. I fear we would do worse. I have wept for Zion.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
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_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

The Nehor wrote:If you are serious a quick reading of the Doctrine and Covenants shows that they failed. They failed to build the ideal community in Ohio, they botched their shot at Zion in Missouri, and screwed up Illinois. They fled to the Rocky Mountains and hauled Babylon there with them. If LDS ever get an overdeveloped sense of the righteousness of their ancestors it's fairly easy to open part of their canon and be disabused by God's viewpoint.

The Saints blew their shot at building Zion in the wilderness and failed miserably at Consecration. I have my doubts as to whether we could now do any better. I fear we would do worse. I have wept for Zion.


Would you care to come to my ward and speak on July 22? I'm sure we're going to be treated to our yearly ancestor worship talks, and I'd really like this presented. The idea that they failed, repeatedly, even when they were isolated and had complete control is never presented from my pulpit. The blame is always foisted off on someone else. (That overdeveloped sense of righteousness is alive and well here in the mission field, far removed from Zion).
_Always Thinking
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Post by _Always Thinking »

Dr. Shades wrote:It seems that many people are forgetting (or don't know) the true context under which the MMM was carried out.

First off, the Nehor: No LDS women were raped during either the Kirtland, Independence, Far West, or Nauvoo stages of Mormonism. "Mormon women were raped" is simply an urban legend that cropped up sometime during the early 20th Century after all the eyewitnesses were dead and gone. Quite simply, it never happened.

Second, the actual trigger-pullers of the MMM did so out of fear for their own lives, pure and simple. No, not out of fear of the Fancher party and the unarmed men, women, and children in it, but out of fear of the LDS heirarchy and "Brigham's Boys." Read any of the accounts from those days and it's ABUNDANTLY clear that disobeying the priesthood, on any level, was an automatic death sentence. To reject orders was to sign one's own death warrant, as it was only a matter of time before the Danites caught up with you back then.

One specific account of the MMM recalled a young man who tried to ride away from the scene before the carnage was carried out, but his father shot at him for doing so (and took off the tip of his ear, but that's probably an exaggeration, of course). According to the account, this was because the father knew that his son would himself be killed if he didn't stay and participate in the massacre.

So the perpetrators of the MMM did so to save their own lives.


Ok, I have to comment on this.

Two things.

First, there is a man in my ward who is a descendant of the boy who was shot by his own father during the MMM. The story handed down through his family was something like this: The father ordered the boy to shoot a child in the Francher Party. The boy refused. The father told him to shoot or he would shoot him (that is, shoot his own son, not the Francher party boy). The boy again refused. The father shot at him and grazed him on the the temple. The boy managed to get out of shooting anyone during the massacre.

My friend (who is about 60 years old) remembers his grandfather describing his memory of his grandfather (I think, I don't know exactly how many generations ago this would have been). He apparently had a permanent gray streak in his hair due to the bullet grazing his head.

Second, I borrowed Juanita Brook's book about the MMM from this friend so I could educate myself about it and while I was reading, I recognized one of my own ancestors named in the book! I was quite surprised! I am relieved (proud!) to say that my ancestor tried to stop the MMM from occurring. I think it is funny that my mother never told me about her ancestor's involvement in the MMM. I guess she didn't like talking about such a black moment in the church's history, even if our own ancestor's actions were beyond reproach. She had never even heard of the MMM (it was never mentioned in her family) until she moved to Arkansas as an adult. You can bet that she found out about it then! People here have not completely forgotten about it.

My gggrandfather absolutely refused to be a part of it. I think that the local leaders probably knew his personality and had kept plans about the MMM away from him on purpose, knowing he would fight against it. Once he knew of it, he did everything in his power to talk them out of it. Our family stories say that there was an unsuccessful attempt on his life once he made his opposition known (I highlighted that part in his journal quote).

These are the words of Laban's (my great great grandfather) journal:

Laban Morrill wrote:"'During my sojourn in this part of the country I served as a member of the city council (of Cedar City) and the high council (stake) of the church. And it was during this time too, that happened the most horrible affair that occurred in the annals of our history, when the blackest of crimes known as the Mountain Meadow Massacre was perpetrated. It was perpetrated by some members of our church, whose pure principles teach that for him who kills there can be no forgiveness in this world or in the next. I knew when the horrifying deed was being discussed by the perpetrators and did all in my power to prevent it and save the lives of the 120 souls who perished there. My opponents claimed that there were among the emigrants men who had assisted in the crimes of murdering and openly boasted that he had helped to kill our prophet. Other claims brot against them by my opponents (among them were many red men) were that they had poisoned the springs of water, etc., as they passed through the territory, and had proclaimed that they would help to kill every damn Mormon off the earth. But do not our principles of right teach us to return good for evil and do good to those who despitefully use us? To fall upon them and destroy them was the work of savage monsters rather than that of civilized beings of our own enlightened time.

"After doing all in my power to dissuade them from their wicked course, but in vain, I persuaded them to wait till I could get a message to Governor Young, which they promised to do. The answer came in haste, commanding them to desist and allow the emigrants to pass unharmed. But before the word arrived, Lee had gathered together a posse of murderers like himself and the dastardly deed was done. God forbid the pages of my journal should be stained with the recital of a crime so foul. But I want my children's children to know that sin, like this is and ever has been, is loathed by me and is in direct opposition to the teachings of Father...'

"His daughter Sarah Morrill Sudweeks gives the following account of his story of the massacre.

"'It was while the family were living here (Johnson's Fort, 7 miles north of Cedar) that the Mountain Meadow massacre took place. In September 1857 Father related how a company of emigrants was passing through, going to California. They would tear down fences, anything they wanted, and brag how they had ravished their wives and daughters. The people stood so much they felt they could stand it no longer. A meeting was called which Father attended. They wanted to do away with the company. Father opposed it and finally got them to promise to wait till they could get word to President Young. Accordingly a messenger -- James Haslem -- was sent. President Young told him not to spare horse-flesh in returning word that the company must be saved. But before the messenger returned, the deed was done. Men and women perished. What a terrible tragedy it was. Years later John D. Lee paid the penalty with his life. I remember Mother and I, with some others, stood on the porch at the Fort and watched the white top buggy go by carrying Lee to Mountain Meadows to be executed.

'That night after the council meeting in Cedar (before the deed) Father felt impressed to go a different way home -- to Johnson's Fort. He did so, giving the horses the reins, and going in a hurry. Later he found that two men had been sent to waylay him. He said that he noticed the two men leave the meeting before it was out -- Dan McFarlane and Joseph Smith -- both good men. McFarlane was postmaster in Cedar for years when we lived there. I remember them both so well.'"
_Inconceivable
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Post by _Inconceivable »

The Nehor wrote:I don't see that being a difference unless you're being ironic here.



From the Mormon perspective this is no irony. One was carried out by the wicked (Haun's Mill). The other, God, our loving heavenly father commanded his righteous, noble and chosen to execute the other (MMM).

From my perspective, it has made me physically ill when I realize I used to think so much like Gaz. If one can buy the argument, one is willing to either do it or stand by and do nothing as it is being carried out. Though I am forgiving myself I feel ashamed.

If God commands such things of His children (or even my children), I reject him. I don't want Him. It would make little difference if He actually were my god or the Mormons were his people.


The fact of the matter is that God's true church will not take responsibility for a wicked deed done by it's members in the name of the church. Keep in mind, all that enterred the temple at that time covenanted to avenge the blood of Joseph and Hyrum. It teaches personal responsibility while it will not take it upon itself.
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Post by _The Nehor »

harmony wrote:Would you care to come to my ward and speak on July 22? I'm sure we're going to be treated to our yearly ancestor worship talks, and I'd really like this presented. The idea that they failed, repeatedly, even when they were isolated and had complete control is never presented from my pulpit. The blame is always foisted off on someone else. (That overdeveloped sense of righteousness is alive and well here in the mission field, far removed from Zion).


I would love to. My talk would not denigrate them but show how they failed to do what they set out to do. They laid a general path out and failed to walk it to the end. Now it's our responsibility to exceed them. Blaming the mobs and everyone else is stupid. Zion is invincible. If they built Zion the mobs would never have come or would have been rendered powerless in a display of God's power akin to Enoch defeating the armies that came against his city.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

Inconceivable wrote:
The Nehor wrote:I don't see that being a difference unless you're being ironic here.



From the Mormon perspective this is no irony. One was carried out by the wicked (Haun's Mill). The other, God, our loving heavenly father commanded his righteous, noble and chosen to execute the other (MMM).

From my perspective, it has made me physically ill when I realize I used to think so much like Gaz. If one can buy the argument, one is willing to either do it or stand by and do nothing as it is being carried out. Though I am forgiving myself I feel ashamed.

If God commands such things of His children (or even my children), I reject him. I don't want Him. It would make little difference if He actually were my god or the Mormons were his people.


The fact of the matter is that God's true church will not take responsibility for a wicked deed done by it's members in the name of the church. Keep in mind, all that enterred the temple at that time covenanted to avenge the blood of Joseph and Hyrum. It teaches personal responsibility while it will not take it upon itself.


I don't accept that there are the 'wicked' and the 'noble chosen ones'. Furthermore I don't believe God commanded them to attack that wagon train.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_Rollo Tomasi
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Re: A Different MMM Thread

Post by _Rollo Tomasi »

The Nehor wrote:All the attackers involved are now dead and I hope that most of them were honestly wrong in what they did and can now rest and have sought and gotten forgiveness from those they attacked. Those who acted out of malice and hatred, I assume, are paying for their crimes until the day of redemption.

Not all those who were involved in deliberations as to what to do with the Fancher party, wanted to kill or even attack the emigrants. An example is Laban Morrill, who attended the 9/6 "prayer meeting" in Cedar City among local Church leaders. Morrill recalled some at the meeting being in favor of killing the emigrants, and others who were not. It was Morrill who suggested that nothing be done until they received instructions from BY. According to Morrill, the group then unanimously decided to send a message to BY (via express rider James Haslam), and the consensus was that no hostile action would be taken until an answer was received. Morrill was hated by some for suggesting this course, and after the meeting he took a different way home because he feared that some at the meeting wanted to commit violence against him.

Source: Bagley, Blood of the Prophets, pp. 126-27.

EDITED TO ADD: I just noticed that Laban Morrill is mentioned above; sorry for any repitition.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

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