Recent press release from the LDS church.

[_harmony]

Because I think you would also have to include the stakes and units of the church also. There is a feedback loop that circulates throughtout the units and stakes of the church that plays an important part in decisions/policies that are then disseminated throughout the church as a whole.

Since when? And where's the documentation that shows that? You realize what slippery slope you're tiptoeing around, right?

A number of years ago I was serving on the high council in our stake. Elder Todd Christofferson came to our stake and conducted a leadership session on a Sat. evening. He used an analogy that related to irrigation and how water moves from source to destination. He then taught us that SL is quite interested in having a greater degree of communication going both ways between the stakes and church headquarters so that those that sit in councils up in the COB know what the needs/concerns are out in the units of the church. I would assume we weren't the first ones that he had shared this information with.

Heresay. Big deal. Some of the stuff that I've heard in stake conference would curl your hair.

When it's in the Ensign and/or general conference, then I'll believe it's really happening. Until then, SLCentral is still just irrigating. There is no evidence of reverse flow.

Do you have a problem with that concept?

I see no evidence of it. I have no problem with it. I could only wish for more of it.

What slippery slope are you referring to?

Regards,
MG

You are proposing that our church leaders acknowledge they receive no more inspiration than anyone else, and make their decisions based on humanly gathered information. The next step will be to acknowledge that God isn't at the helm.

[_mentalgymnast]

Because I think you would also have to include the stakes and units of the church also. There is a feedback loop that circulates throughtout the units and stakes of the church that plays an important part in decisions/policies that are then disseminated throughout the church as a whole.

Since when? And where's the documentation that shows that? You realize what slippery slope you're tiptoeing around, right?

A number of years ago I was serving on the high council in our stake. Elder Todd Christofferson came to our stake and conducted a leadership session on a Sat. evening. He used an analogy that related to irrigation and how water moves from source to destination. He then taught us that SL is quite interested in having a greater degree of communication going both ways between the stakes and church headquarters so that those that sit in councils up in the COB know what the needs/concerns are out in the units of the church. I would assume we weren't the first ones that he had shared this information with.

Heresay. Big deal.

Take it or leave it. I can guess what you'll do. <g>

MG: Do you have a problem with that concept?

Harmony: I see no evidence of it. I have no problem with it. I could only wish for more of it.

MG: What slippery slope are you referring to?

Harmony: You are proposing that our church leaders acknowledge they receive no more inspiration than anyone else, and make their decisions based on humanly gathered information. The next step will be to acknowledge that God isn't at the helm.

So you wish fervently for more two way communication with SL from the stakes and units of the church, but OTOH you then would see that as being counterproductive, because it would simply demonstrate that the powers that be in SL are not receiving the inspiration that they ought to independently of the input of others, and as a result God isn't at the helm. Hmmm...

Can't win for losing.

Interesting.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

Harmony,

Is the blog, "Equality Time" yours?

MG

[_harmony]

Take it or leave it. I can guess what you'll do. <g>

If it's not from the pulpit in general conference, it's not official. If it's not official, it's not worth diddley in this church.

I've learned that lesson really well.

So you wish fervently for more two way communication with SL from the stakes and units of the church, but OTOH you then would see that as being counterproductive, because it would simply demonstrate that the powers that be in SL are not receiving the inspiration that they ought to independently of the input of others, and as a result God isn't at the helm.

I long ago came to the conclusion that God is no more at the helm of this church now than he was in 1820. I'm just waiting for the announcement from SLCentral that confirms it.

Our leaders in SLCentral cannot acknowledge that they have input from anyone; doing so would undermine their smoke and mirrors about the supposed revelations they receive on behalf of the church. We see whisperings of surveys, but no published results. We only see assurances that God is at the helm and he wants these changes made. Yet anyone with an ounce of discernment knows the changes are a result of the surveys, not revelation. Kinda like the smoke and mirrors with the Manifesto.

[_harmony]

Harmony,

Is the blog, "Equality Time" yours?

MG

I choose to spend my time in pursuits other than blogging.

[_mentalgymnast]

I long ago came to the conclusion that God is no more at the helm of this church now than he was in 1820. I'm just waiting for the announcement from SLCentral that confirms it.

OK. I didn't realize I was communicating with a died in the wool, no holds barred, true blue disbeliever. I thought there was some room for discourse with you. There isn't.

Regards,
MG

[_harmony]

I long ago came to the conclusion that God is no more at the helm of this church now than he was in 1820. I'm just waiting for the announcement from SLCentral that confirms it.

OK. I didn't realize I was communicating with a died in the wool, no holds barred, true blue disbeliever. I thought there was some room for discourse with you. There isn't.

Regards,
MG

I've been waiting for meaningful revelation for almost 40 years, MG. Thus far, I've seen a revelation to roll back a policy that should never have been in place in the first place, a change in the style of underwear, correlation (*spit*), the 3 hour Sunday block, one earring and no tattoos, and not much else.

Now, if you can convince the power's that be that there are some real problems that they should be concentrating on, instead of building monument after monument to themselves, I'd appreciate it. We could start with the deplorable way women are treated/marginalized/patronized in this church. And once we've dealt with that (via the revelation to extend the priesthood to women), we can go onto things like opening the books and publishing a real financial statement, getting out of all for-profit businesses (a revelation that will no doubt shock many in high leadership positions, because it will entail selling their dwellings), stop the flow of money to perks for leaders' families (like free tuition to church schools, cars and drivers, free rent on million dollar condos, maid service, etc), and then we can go onto restructuring the missionary program, enhancing the humanitarian aid programs, restructing the way leaders are called and kept long past their prime, and kicking the POTF to the curb.

Let's get cracking, MG! There's a lot changes that should be made!

[_mentalgymnast]

You had been an active member for many years before you came in contact with church related issues and look what happened. Even though the church wasn't up front with you, you still gained access to information. That information, from whatever its source, took its toll.

We gained access to that information from anti-Mormon sources. Your scenario wouldn't be so much of a problem if the church didn't actively brainwash its members into running away screaming from anything even slightly resembling an anti-Mormon source.

I gained access to the information from the same sources you did. I do not hold the church accountable for not publishing this information or dumping it on the internet back in the nineties. I can readily see why they didn't do so. This has no direct connection/correlation, however, with the truth claims of the church and the authority it claims to possess in regards to salvation/exaltation through Jesus Christ. I have been under NO restrictions/condemnations/encouragments, or to "run away screaming" from "anything even slightly resembling an anti-mormon source." Neither have those that I associate with within my family and community. I have been totally free with my explorations without being brainwashed. Am I alone?

MG: To understand and assimilate the issues which have caused such a great deal of anguish and pain for many here on this board and elsewhere it takes time, maturity, and the ability to put things in context with life experience, church experience, educational and learning curve experience, spiritual experience, human frailty experience, comparative religion experience, weighing the alternatives experience, reading experiences... the list could go on.

Shades: You're missing the point. The entire reason it "caused such a great deal of anguish and pain" is because the church wasn't forthcoming about any of this. The information itself doesn't cause anguish and pain; the fact that there is an active campaign of suppression is what (eventually) causes it.

I believe that you have been misled into thinking that this is so. If it's NOT the information itself that's caused your anguish and pain, then I think you would be obliged to go back and rethink why it is that the perceived weaknesses of an organization and full disclosure from the same, would inhibit application/practice of what you may have at one time believed doctrinally, i.e., baptism, repentance, gift of the HG, temple ordinances, atonement of Christ, etc.

The fact that there has been activity along the way through organized means within the church such as the Strengthening the Church Committee, disciplinary councils, etc., does not have anything directly to do with the actual truth claims of the church as far as I can see.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

I long ago came to the conclusion that God is no more at the helm of this church now than he was in 1820. I'm just waiting for the announcement from SLCentral that confirms it.

OK. I didn't realize I was communicating with a died in the wool, no holds barred, true blue disbeliever. I thought there was some room for discourse with you. There isn't.

Regards,
MG

I've been waiting for meaningful revelation for almost 40 years, MG. Thus far, I've seen a revelation to roll back a policy that should never have been in place in the first place, a change in the style of underwear, correlation (*spit*), the 3 hour Sunday block, one earring and no tattoos, and not much else.

Now, if you can convince the power's that be that there are some real problems that they should be concentrating on, instead of building monument after monument to themselves, I'd appreciate it. We could start with the deplorable way women are treated/marginalized/patronized in this church. And once we've dealt with that (via the revelation to extend the priesthood to women), we can go onto things like opening the books and publishing a real financial statement, getting out of all for-profit businesses (a revelation that will no doubt shock many in high leadership positions, because it will entail selling their dwellings), stop the flow of money to perks for leaders' families (like free tuition to church schools, cars and drivers, free rent on million dollar condos, maid service, etc), and then we can go onto restructuring the missionary program, enhancing the humanitarian aid programs, restructing the way leaders are called and kept long past their prime, and kicking the POTF to the curb.

Let's get cracking, MG! There's a lot changes that should be made!

Do your disgruntlements expressed here inhibit belief in the core components of the gospel...Faith, repentance, gift of the HG, obeying the commandments, Sabbath Day observance, partaking of the sacrament, faith in Christ, etc.? Or have all these other issues that bother you so much smothered/suffocated the possibility of truthfulness of the basic truth claims of the LDS church?

Regards,
MG

[_harmony]

Do your disgruntlements expressed here inhibit belief in the core components of the gospel...Faith, repentance, gift of the HG, obeying the commandments, Sabbath Day observance, partaking of the sacrament, faith in Christ, etc.? Or have all these other issues that bother you so much smothered/suffocated the possibility of truthfulness of the basic truth claims of the LDS church?

Regards,
MG

I find the gospel of Jesus Christ to be a comfort, wherever I find it. As for the basic claims of the LDS church (restoration of priesthood authority, required ordinances, follow the prophet, etc), I'm a bit left of center. I'm still waiting for canonization of the restoration of the Melch priesthood. Until then, I'm not seeing much authority.