?????But they are really nice people.?????

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_Hoops
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Post by _Hoops »

Doctor Steuss wrote:I’m glad some have seen through my superficial Mormon “niceness.” I also knew that all of that love and charity my mother expresses to everyone (despite their religious paradigm) is known to be nothing more than a scam to help bring about missionary opportunities. It’s refreshing to know that the truth that I’m actually a misanthropic daft prick is known despite my efforts to put on my “Nice Mormon” charade.

If anyone needs me, I will be privately drowning kittens in the lower kingdom. Don't worry; I'll be up once the litter has met its demise in a few minutes to comment on how nice homosexuals are and to continue my ruse of Mormon nicety.

Now where did I put that bottle of fecal matter I’ve been saving to desecrate the graves of non-Mormons?... er, I mean. I LOVE non-Mormons. Some of them are my closest friends (I wonder if these suckers are buying this while I'm hiding my depression and anger by my shallow Mormon niceness).


Good Doctor,

I think you know that the comments were regarding culture of Mormons. We all can come up with anecdotal evidence to support or contradict the supposition. I know I can come down on both sides of this fence and that, to a large degree, is immaterial. I really can't comment since, as it were, I'm on the outside looking in - hence, my silliness. But, if I may, do you not find a grain of truth in the OP?
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Monkeys - I understand. :)

Dr. Steuss -

I'm going to bold the words you apparently overlooked in my comments:



The niceness of Mormons - aside from personality variations which can be found everywhere - is sometimes manipulative. Mormons are taught to show their best side to the world, to show how HAPPY they are, so that the rest of the world will say: WOW! Look at how happy that person is. I wonder what their secret is. I wish *I* could be that happy.


Do you deny that Mormons are taught this? Mormons are taught to show other people how happy they are in order in the hopes of encouraging missionary opportunities?

Another aspect of Mormon niceness is the fear of being "bad". Mormonism, while it does accept Christ's atonement as a free gift in terms of everyone resurrecting with a body and in terms of opening the door of opportunity to exaltation, in the end, Mormonism is a very works-based religion. You have to earn your way to heaven (or the CK). Moreover, so much is asked of Mormons that it is very easy to feel inadequate. So being "nice" and happy is almost a religious obligation, and if one isn't "nice", one might not get into the CK.


Did I make an incorrect statement? Isn't niceness and happiness part of showing your worthiness to obtain the CK? Is it easy to feel inadequate as a Mormon?





Then there is the guilt factor - I experienced this a lot - Mormons are taught, over and over, that they are the LUCKIEST and most BLESSED people on the face of the entire EARTH and even in the history of the PLANET (due to the great apostasy) because they actually have the ONE TRUE GOSPEL OF JC - so Mormons tend to feel guilty if they don't feel happy, nice, shiny.


Did I make any incorrect statement? Aren't Mormons taught how lucky they are, and can't that easily lead to guilt for NOT feeling quite so happy?

But this forced happiness and niceness sometimes covers depression and anger, which can be manifest through passive aggressiveness (always being late to meetings, over eating junk). And, with certain people, this aggression can be openly manifest - particularly towards apostates.


Again, is there any incorrect statement here? Can forced happiness and niceness sometimes cover depression and anger? Is aggressiveness sometimes manifest towards apostates?


Moreover, the "niceness" overlay aside, some Mormon teachings are quite cruel - swedeboy mentioned the homosexuality issue, which is one example. There are other potential cruelties - such as racial attitudes or past teachings, the tendency to "idealize", and hence, control women, the association of righteousness with financial success, etc.


So any incorrect statements here? Is it cruel to teach a person that his/her innate sexuality is sinful? Are past racial attitudes that were religiously justified - sometimes still manifest - cruel? Can the tendency to push women towards certain idealized roles and behavior be cruel?

I'm all for basic politeness, but when nicety is a veneer coating, it is less appealing.

Having said that, please don't interpret this to mean I find all Mormons unpleasant. That is not true at all. They tend to be like the regular population in that regard. Some pleasant, some not. They just tend to cover up the "not" part more than nonmormons (although I think other religious sects have the same tendency).



See? I'm a prophetess. I knew someone would do just what you did, Steuss.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

Doctor Steuss wrote:I’m glad some have seen through my superficial Mormon “niceness.” I also knew that all of that love and charity my mother expresses to everyone (despite their religious paradigm) is known to be nothing more than a scam to help bring about missionary opportunities. It’s refreshing to know that the truth that I’m actually a misanthropic daft prick is known despite my efforts to put on my “Nice Mormon” charade.

If anyone needs me, I will be privately drowning kittens in the lower kingdom. Don't worry; I'll be up once the litter has met its demise in a few minutes to comment on how nice homosexuals are and to continue my ruse of Mormon nicety.

Now where did I put that bottle of fecal matter I’ve been saving to desecrate the graves of non-Mormons?... er, I mean. I LOVE non-Mormons. Some of them are my closest friends (I wonder if these suckers are buying this while I'm hiding my depression and anger by my shallow Mormon niceness).


It might be helpful if we agree to not personalize comments. Nothing in my post, or any other post, was directed at you or your mother. Why would you assume it did? There was ample leeway for acknowledging the "nice" Mormons. Why did you not assume that included you? That said, anyone who doesn't see the facade we as Mormons show to the world is blind indeed. We are an arrogant people who firmly believe in our specialness. We remind ourselves that we are the chosen. That we have more of the gospel than anyone else. That it's our responsibility to teach the world, which of course puts us on a higher plane than anyone else on the planet. To ignore that institutionalized arrogance, and focus on individual acts of kindness, is to ignore who and what we really are.
_wenglund
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Post by _wenglund »

harmony wrote: Personally, I find the idea that Mormons are really nice people to be a bit left of true. Some Mormons are really nice people, but by and large I have not found Mormons to be really nice people. I've found them to be arrogant self-righteous pricks who think they're special in God's eyes. Nice people don't think they're special. There are some true Saints among us, but for the most part, we have a long ways to go in the Nice People Department.


Isn't it curious how different individuals can have such divergent perceptions of the same group people. Perhaps the saying is correct about one's perception of others being a reflection (or projection) of oneself.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

wenglund wrote:
harmony wrote: Personally, I find the idea that Mormons are really nice people to be a bit left of true. Some Mormons are really nice people, but by and large I have not found Mormons to be really nice people. I've found them to be arrogant self-righteous pricks who think they're special in God's eyes. Nice people don't think they're special. There are some true Saints among us, but for the most part, we have a long ways to go in the Nice People Department.


Isn't it curious how different individuals can have such divergent perceptions of the same group people. Perhaps the saying is correct about one's perception of others being a reflection (or projection) of oneself.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


And it is equally if not moreso correct that the self cannot see itself as others see it. If you want to know how others see you, looking internally won't answer that question. You have to ask others and actually hear what they say. Something that members in general, and you in particular, seem to struggle with, Wade.
_Doctor Steuss
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Post by _Doctor Steuss »

Beastie and Harmony,

My apologies for taking the comments personally, and for overlooking the qualifiers used. Some days, generalizations piss me off for some reason. I’m better now.

Sorry,
Stu

Edited to add:
I think we are all guilty at times (not just Mormons) of "putting on the face to meet the faces" (thank you Mr. Elliot).
"Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." ~Charles Bukowski
_wenglund
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Post by _wenglund »

harmony wrote:
wenglund wrote:
harmony wrote: Personally, I find the idea that Mormons are really nice people to be a bit left of true. Some Mormons are really nice people, but by and large I have not found Mormons to be really nice people. I've found them to be arrogant self-righteous pricks who think they're special in God's eyes. Nice people don't think they're special. There are some true Saints among us, but for the most part, we have a long ways to go in the Nice People Department.


Isn't it curious how different individuals can have such divergent perceptions of the same group people. Perhaps the saying is correct about one's perception of others being a reflection (or projection) of oneself.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


And it is equally if not moreso correct that the self cannot see itself as others see it. If you want to know how others see you, looking internally won't answer that question. You have to ask others and actually hear what they say. Something that members in general, and you in particular, seem to struggle with, Wade.


It's ironic that your comments about self-blindness was about others rather than yourself. LOL

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

No problem, stu. You have a history of being very reasonable, and I felt certain you would pay attention to the qualifiers this time - as well as my caution that I did not intend this to apply to all Mormons in some general fashion.

I am curious as to one point in particular - do you agree that LDS are taught to present a happy face to the world so the world will wonder why they are so happy, so hopefully they will be interested in the church?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

wenglund wrote:
harmony wrote:
wenglund wrote:
harmony wrote: Personally, I find the idea that Mormons are really nice people to be a bit left of true. Some Mormons are really nice people, but by and large I have not found Mormons to be really nice people. I've found them to be arrogant self-righteous pricks who think they're special in God's eyes. Nice people don't think they're special. There are some true Saints among us, but for the most part, we have a long ways to go in the Nice People Department.


Isn't it curious how different individuals can have such divergent perceptions of the same group people. Perhaps the saying is correct about one's perception of others being a reflection (or projection) of oneself.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


And it is equally if not moreso correct that the self cannot see itself as others see it. If you want to know how others see you, looking internally won't answer that question. You have to ask others and actually hear what they say. Something that members in general, and you in particular, seem to struggle with, Wade.


It's ironic that your comments about self-blindness was about others rather than yourself. LOL

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


On the contrary, Wade. I lump myself squarely with the arrogant self-righteous pricks who so accurately represent Mormonism to the world. Why would you assume I didn't? It's only you, and members like you, who refuse to see our institutionalized arrogance for what it is. We, and I include myself in that We, are arrogant, reveling in our specialness, our chosen people-hood. Only by acknowledging the problem can it be dealt with. You, who are included in those who hide their head in the sand, are the intentionally blind one(s).
_Doctor Steuss
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Post by _Doctor Steuss »

beastie wrote:No problem, stu. You have a history of being very reasonable, and I felt certain you would pay attention to the qualifiers this time - as well as my caution that I did not intend this to apply to all Mormons in some general fashion.

Thank you for your understanding.

I am curious as to one point in particular - do you agree that LDS are taught to present a happy face to the world so the world will wonder why they are so happy, so hopefully they will be interested in the church?


I would be lying if I said that I hadn't heard such at some point and time. But, from the Church's standpoint, I don't believe it is advocating a superficial presentation of happiness. From a believer’s standpoint, that “light” that you’re allowing to shine for others is believed to be tangible and real. I do agree that often people probably put on a false light (maybe an LED when they should be displaying an incandescent), which is unfortunate. It is one of the reasons I often become bored at church (there seems to be this “face to meet the faces” [again, my hat off to Mr. Elliot], that everyone puts on with their Sunday best. Sometimes I long for nitty-gritty, punch-you-in-the-face, someone-please-help-me, reality.

The whole happiness presentation can be a bit of double edged sword. On one hand, putting on a happy face when you’re actually broken inside can help to heal the cracks. But on the other hand, continuing to put on the happy face when you’re broken inside can prevent others from knowing you need them. All-in-all though, I think that presentation of a happy face to the world is genuine and real for some and is in no way a conscious act.

I recall reading a book sometime past, written by a former member of the Church (who had converted to the faith) wherein she talked about how hard it was looking around and seeing all of the “perfect mothers.” It made her feel inferior, and wondered when “Mormonism” would kick in and make her a “prefect mother” too. She eventually befriended another mother in the ward and was “shocked” (I believe “shocked” was her exact term) to find out that this other mother struggled with the same thing.

Allowing the world to know when there’s a cloud in our life isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Often we are encouraged so much to let Christ know our burdens that I think we overlook the fact that we need to let those whom are placed here to help to know our burdens as well.

If we have something that enriches our lives, it’s only natural that even on the dark days we will try to put on our mask to try to bring others to that source. Unfortunately though, our masks don’t come with a disclaimer that dark days aren’t eliminated by coming into the “light” (whatever that may be).

And, I think I’ve rambled and pontificated enough. I don’t know why I being so verbose today.
"Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." ~Charles Bukowski
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