KimberlyAnn Moves to Delphi...

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_Canucklehead
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Post by _Canucklehead »

Coggins7 wrote:
You are immune to the verification available, just as one is immune to the effects of certain chemicals introduced into the body, while others would have a reaction. This immunity is self imposed, and is nothing for which I can offer hope of remediation.

You do not understand the Gospel KimberlyAnn, and I understand that you do not understand.

...

The only way to know if the Church is true, or if God lives (and is as the Church teaches he is) is to ask him.

It is to ask him personally, intimately, and "with real intent, nothing wavering" as James said. Which begs the question: why are you asking me when you should be asking him these questions? Not that you shouldn't ask others about such things, but I think you've been asking and debating, and arguing for a long time now, and no answer is in sight.

With your present attitude, I have no answer I can give.


Wow. Now, this is amusing. Coggins starts a thread berating KimberlyAnn for claiming to know the state of his mind, and then on the second page of the very same thread comes out with this gem.
_Blixa
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Post by _Blixa »

I claim to know techniques through which one can know subjectively the same things I know.


but also,

I cannot pass on my knowledge to you as I could pass on my knowledge of martial arts or of political history.


The knowledge of these techniques can, though, be passed on? The techniques are praying, etc? If they don't work for me its because I've made myself immune and nobody can help with that?

Am I following this?

(By the way, Nehpi, I found you LSD story very interesting and very like many other things I've read about chemically induced altered states. I've never used any hallucinogens myself. When I was younger I was very afraid I could accidently mess my brain up and since my brain was all I had I couldn't take that chance. Now I'm less afraid, but also less interested in that experience. I am, however, slightly intrigued by account of visionary/hallucinatory experiences at the moment having just recently experienced my first migraine aura. Very trippy and like Hildegard of Bingen I saw the City of God.)
Last edited by Anonymous on Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
_Nephi

Post by _Nephi »

beastie wrote:One of the inputs that gives us certainty is the fact that other people also have contact with that same input and draw the same conclusion as we do. Aside from the minor possibility of a mass delusion, the conclusions of others can be viewed as repeatability, in terms of a quasi-scientific method.

To play devil's advocate here, many times recorded history has shown us that mass delusion is a reality and happens quite often. Take (for example) the heliocentric theory vs. a geocentric theory. When the ideas that the sun is at the center, and not the earth was first hypothesized, those who supported a heliocentric model were excommunicated, or worse, from the church and society! There was this mass delusion going on that we were extra special and therefore, the earth must be the center of everything.

Take another example - the holocaust, whereby people were ordered to kill massive amounts of citizens including Jews (for the most part), gays, gypsies, and a whole slew of others because, well, they were believed to be bad on society. It wasn't just a fear of the government that caused people to do this, but was also a true belief that what they were being told was true!

Mass delusion, or "groupthink" (as it is called in psychology) is a very real term and natural concept in humanity. This does not negate the possibility of God, but just because someone else believes it doesn't necessarily make it "true" or "right".
_A Light in the Darkness
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Post by _A Light in the Darkness »

The problem with Kimberly's post relies on a simple equivocation. She's making a mundane epistemological point that you can't know anything (or most things) with perfect certainty. She's saying you claim to know your Mormon beliefs with such certainty, therefore you must be making a mistaken claim. Call it the Tal Bachman gambit. She's hoping naïve readers will confuse two senses of the word "certain." The reality is that you don't claim to know with that kind of certainty, but that doesn't prevent you from having a justified belief in the LDS faith or saying you are certain in the more normal sense. I am as certain of the truth of the Church as I am that the United States exists. How's that?
_The Dude
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Post by _The Dude »

A Light in the Darkness wrote:The reality is that you don't claim to know with that kind of certainty, but that doesn't prevent you from having a justified belief in the LDS faith or saying you are certain in the more normal sense. I am as certain of the truth of the Church as I am that the United States exists. How's that?


This works for me:

I'm as certain that the Book of Mormon is a 19th century human invention as I am that crop circles are modern human inventions.

Image
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_Canucklehead
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Post by _Canucklehead »

A Light in the Darkness wrote: I am as certain of the truth of the Church as I am that the United States exists. How's that?


So you're 99.9999% (assuming that you're pretty damn confident in the existence of the US) certain that the church is "true"?

Wow.
_gramps
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Post by _gramps »

Nephi wrote:
gramps wrote:
Nephi wrote:

About 3 years after my father's death, I took a LOT of LSD all at once, on the hopes of finding some "key" out, or learning something overly profound that would set the path out before me. I can only remember blips and pieces of that trip, and can dare say that I saw God Itself during that, but I was not ready for what the trip showed me, and so I took very little from it.


So, how much was a LOT? In micrograms? 500? 1000? more?


I didn't make it, and since I didn't have some way of measuring what the quantity was on each square (it was paper) it would only be a guess...

So, it is suggested that a single "hit" of LSD is somewhere between 100 and 500µg. I had friends who ate single hits of the stuff, and they claimed it to be extra potent (we were all very familiar with LSD and knew a strong hit from an average or weak one), so judging from their reactions, the stuff was on the heavier end of this scale, or closer to 500µg. I ate 10 hits, so we are approaching 5000µg. I would guess it be somewhere between 3500µg and 5000µg or so.


I would say that qualifies as a lot. Thanks for the information.
I detest my loose style and my libertine sentiments. I thank God, who has removed from my eyes the veil...
Adrian Beverland
_Gadianton
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Post by _Gadianton »

Now this is a very interesting proposition. KimberlyAnn knows that I do not know that, just to take one point of several mentioned, there is a God.

One must be forgiven for wondering just what mechanisms obtain here that allow anyone, even KA, to know and comprehend the contents of the minds of others.


In other words, the subject of knowledge is pointless since to talk about knowledge requires us to talk about the contents of mind. And usually that extends to other minds.

If I claim to know there is a God, most rationalists would only complain that this obviates any objective verification,


Why would rationalists do that? Will you hurry and get into that graduate school you always talk about and get some of the basic terminology down you throw around without any consideration?

and hence, is not open to confirmation by independent observers. This would be the standard empiricist problem with religious truth claims.


Now it's the empiricist's problem?

Now, KA claims that she has acquired absolute knowledge, in some manner, that my claim of absolute knowledge of the existence of God is in fact, a false claim. We would wish to know then, in what manner this knowledge was obtained, and how it functions; that is, how it is that the subjective contents of my mind are available to her such that an absolute claim about them can be made with certainty (a certainty that she denies to me regarding a positive claim about God's existence).


The mechanism was the same one responsible for your understanding of "rationalism", your imagination and tendency to make things up.

Why is absolute, certain knowledge open to her and not to me? How could she have acquired knowledge regarding my interior experiences, perceptions, and feelings?


One of your problems is, cog, that you're conflating the problem of other minds with the more general subject of knowledge. To make your case, you've become a solipsist's solipsist.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

One must be forgiven for wondering just what mechanisms obtain here that allow anyone, even KA, to know and comprehend the contents of the minds of others.


In other words, the subject of knowledge is pointless since to talk about knowledge requires us to talk about the contents of mind. And usually that extends to other minds.


That's a very fine dance Gad; as stupefying a red herring as anything you ever posted at ZLMB. I think, indeed, I know you know very well the point I'm making here. You just...uh...don't want to make it.


Coggiins:

If I claim to know there is a God, most rationalists would only complain that this obviates any objective verification,



Why would rationalists do that? Will you hurry and get into that graduate school you always talk about and get some of the basic terminology down you throw around without any consideration?



Uh huh. The Scratch technique of honing in on a semantic quibble and making a point out of some possible linguistic ambiguity this might involve. And all so the "free thinking: atheist can prance around so as to avoid the very real problems his belief system and its core propositions involve.

Coggins:

and hence, is not open to confirmation by independent observers. This would be the standard empiricist problem with religious truth claims.

Now it's the empiricist's problem?



Doesn't it get tiring pretending to be educated and clever?

Coggins:

Now, KA claims that she has acquired absolute knowledge, in some manner, that my claim of absolute knowledge of the existence of God is in fact, a false claim. We would wish to know then, in what manner this knowledge was obtained, and how it functions; that is, how it is that the subjective contents of my mind are available to her such that an absolute claim about them can be made with certainty (a certainty that she denies to me regarding a positive claim about God's existence).


The mechanism was the same one responsible for your understanding of "rationalism", your imagination and tendency to make things up.



I'm much more interested in the psychological defense mechanisms (like denial and rationalization) that drive intellectual avoidance rather than intellectual engagement with seriouis arguments.

Coggins:

Why is absolute, certain knowledge open to her and not to me? How could she have acquired knowledge regarding my interior experiences, perceptions, and feelings?


One of your problems is, cog, that you're conflating the problem of other minds with the more general subject of knowledge. To make your case, you've become a solipsist's solipsist.



I've become no such thing. I'm asking a series of questions intended to expose the interconnected logical inconsistencies and epistemological assumptions of Kimberly's own solipsistic approach to LDS claims of the nature of testimony. That the self negation inherent in the claiming of claiming certain knowledge that others can have no certain knowledge seems to escape "freethinkers" like yourself who have pre-closed their minds to anything outside the thick template their own self generated intellectual bigotry does not surprise.

Its not, of course, that you can't follow the argument. As always, its simply that psychological and emotional solidarity with a fellow critic of God and all things religious (and Mormon) overwhelms your desire or ability to do so.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Gadianton
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Post by _Gadianton »

cog,

Regarding semantic games, please recall that it is yourself who frequently attacks the education levels of other posters along with their lack of philosophical seriousness. I don't think I'm that smart, Cog, but I have picked up on on a few definitions out there, and if you're going to be "philosophically serious", or especially if you're going to attack other people for not being philosophically serious, you shouldn't pick big important sounding words and then use them in confusing ways, ways that serious philosophers don't use them. Honestly Cog, i hope you go to grad school and submit some of your work filled with jargon dropping and see that, I'm not just making it up that you get these sentences and paragraphs bursting with big words, trying to sound impressive, but that are nearly impossible to decipher because you use the words in your own way.

I'll address your basic point diferently than I did before. I know what you're trying to say, that to claim that absolute knowledge is impossible requires absolute knowledge that absolute knowledge is impossible. But why be redunant? Can knowledge be anything but absolute? So let's say, Kim can't know that you can't have knowledge because that requires Kim to have knowledge. But this doesn't sound so bad now, because we can imagine different possible truths, A, B, C, and D, and there is no inconsitancy in saying that that A = "there can be no knowledge of D" when D is the existence of God. Your use of "absolute" rather than fixing, tries to universalize, which makes kim's statement seem problematic. But Kim doesn't have to have all the knowledge in the universe to make any aboslute (fixed) claims. Kim may know that you can't know there is a God just like she knows that leaves are green. There is no inconsistency here. The inconsistency only arises when you confuse absolute, or fixed knowledge, with knowledge of everything.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
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