Science is not a belief system...

Post by **_Gazelam** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:30 am

"I had only traveled a short time to testify to the people," said Brigham Young, "before I learned this one fact, that you might prove doctrine from the Bible till doomsday, and it would merely convince a people but would not convince them. You might read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation and prove every iota that you advance, and that alone would have no converting influence upon the people. Nothing short of a testimony by the power of the Holy Ghost would bring light and knowledge to them - bring them in their hearts to repentance. Nothing short of that would ever do."

Like Peter, we only gain a testimony by the power of prayer. We create a relationship with the Holy Ghost, who then testifies of Jesus Christ and his prophets. And the Father is known by way of the Son.

_Nephi · Post by **_Nephi** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 4:56 am

Gazelam wrote:Like Peter, we only gain a testimony by the power of prayer. We create a relationship with the Holy Ghost, who then testifies of Jesus Christ and his prophets. And the Father is known by way of the Son.

Look, I am Mormon, and believe "the Church is True" but I have a problem with one word in this phrase... ...the word is only. People can gain testimonies of spiritual things through a whole multitude of things, whether or not the church is true for them. Well before I was a member of the church, I gained a testimony of a pre-mortal existence, without having ever prayed about it. Well before being a member of the church I had a relationship with what I now call the Holy Ghost. Well before Christ, I knew of the Father, I knew of a "heavenly creator" the whole nine yards. All without using prayer to do so.

Prayer, though very very powerful, is not the only tool at mankind's disposal to gain a spiritual "testimony" or to begin to understand spirituality. hardly ever is anything black or white, only this, and nothing else, ie, exclusive.

Post by **_Gadianton** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 5:22 am

heh. that's right, I reference The Dude, I guess that means I win.

Post by **_Mercury** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:02 am

Nephi wrote:
Gazelam wrote:Like Peter, we only gain a testimony by the power of prayer. We create a relationship with the Holy Ghost, who then testifies of Jesus Christ and his prophets. And the Father is known by way of the Son.

Look, I am Mormon, and believe "the Church is True" but I have a problem with one word in this phrase... ...the word is only. People can gain testimonies of spiritual things through a whole multitude of things, whether or not the church is true for them. Well before I was a member of the church, I gained a testimony of a pre-mortal existence, without having ever prayed about it. Well before being a member of the church I had a relationship with what I now call the Holy Ghost. Well before Christ, I knew of the Father, I knew of a "heavenly creator" the whole nine yards. All without using prayer to do so.

Prayer, though very very powerful, is not the only tool at mankind's disposal to gain a spiritual "testimony" or to begin to understand spirituality. hardly ever is anything black or white, only this, and nothing else, ie, exclusive.

You hold to the church why then? Because its the most logical of the true religions out there? Come now, you cannot be that stupid.

Post by **_barrelomonkeys** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 12:47 pm

Nephi, you need to make a LSD thread.

I want to know what spiritual enlightenment you achieved in your altered state of consciousness.

Post by **_truth dancer** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 1:13 pm

Look, I am Mormon, and believe "the Church is True" but I have a problem with one word in this phrase... ...the word is only. People can gain testimonies of spiritual things through a whole multitude of things, whether or not the church is true for them. Well before I was a member of the church, I gained a testimony of a pre-mortal existence, without having ever prayed about it. Well before being a member of the church I had a relationship with what I now call the Holy Ghost. Well before Christ, I knew of the Father, I knew of a "heavenly creator" the whole nine yards. All without using prayer to do so.

It sounds to me like we may have different dfns of "testimony," or possibly, "truth." :-)

The way you discuss truth is more like, something thinking/believing something is true rather than something that actually IS true?

Or maybe, what we believe/think/hope/want to be true is "true," because we believe/think/hope/want it to be so?

In other words, if someone had a past life experience and they believe it means they were alive in another lifetime it is true because they believe it is true?

Or if someone believed they were a queen on Venus and came here to help humans, it is true because they believe it is true, or hold it as true?

In other words, truth is not something that is real or accurate or anything at all like this, it is just what someone believes or thinks upon which they will base their reality.

So whatever anyone wants to believe and holds as a reality is true?

Am I getting this right? ;-)

~dancer~

Post by **_beastie** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 1:41 pm

They flew airplanes into buildings for their own glory and for a "war" which they perceived (unless you subscribe to the whole government conspiracy thing). I see no difference of blowing up one's self and taking out a bunch of innocent civilians and Hiroshima and Nagasaki, when those pilots were given suicide pills incase they didn't make it back. Many many times greater amount of individuals did we kill in Japan with those two bombs, with the majority of them being innocent by large and far. Those bombs were "shock and awe" and nothing more. However, many times in war, people kill themselves in "martyrdom". In the eyes of those terrorists, it was no different.

The sad part will be that in reality they were not at war as such, and because of how fooled they were by an individual with a personal agenda, they were (probably) way off their path, but with unlimited time before them, they have no where to go but up.

Wait a minute. I thought that you respected all paths to God. You are putting words and thoughts in the suicide bombers' mouths. They said they were doing it for Allah, not for their own glory. I believe one could safely guess that anyone who is willing to die or kill for his/her beliefs has an extremely strong "testimony" (although semantics may differ) of those same beliefs. Now you are saying that they were led astray, were off their path, and did things for reasons OTHER than the reasons they articulated.

Because, you see, the problem with what you've just done here is that someone else may feel justified doing the same thing to believing Mormons. You may *think* God has spoken to you and you have a "testimony", but you've really been led astray. You're probably way off your path.

Post by **_The Dude** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 2:44 pm

Nephi wrote:The sad part will be that in reality they were not at war....

What reality? Do you mean the physical one that can be touched and felt (and seen with microscopes and telescopes) -- which records that period of time as wartime...?

Post by **_barrelomonkeys** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 2:52 pm

Nephi. Come talk to me in off topic about lysergic acid diethylamide.

After you get back from Sunday School.

;D

Post by **_Gadianton** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 5:02 pm

Let's continue with the dogpile...

Where we are is a cool place. There are two "realms" that cross here - reality and spirituality, and the more we learn of both realms, the more of the two are merged together as one. Reality is the matter, energy, and space-time around us. Spirituality is the non-tangible energy and matter that gives structure to reality (ie, why things are here, what is a "you" and why "you" exist). They are separate realms that co-exist here, but there are parts of each realm that is currently separate from the other.

I'd like you to sharpen your thesis and tell us just what "non-tangible energy and matter" is, cite an example of how 'it' structures the tangible world, and then bring all that back to explaining why things are here, why you exist, and what "you" are. As a man of faith, you've no doubt got a lot of equivocating going on with the word "spirituality". There's spirit as "more refined" matter, spirit as nonphysical ectoplasm, spirit as metaphor for faith, peacefulness, happiness, burning in bosom, and more. You might be able to see now the problems with even translating the paragraph you wrote. Because LDS do, literally, believe in two separate realms, the spirit realm and the material realm. And the spirit realm, is literally, a place with spirit birds and spirit trees where dead people wait around in prison for the guys on the bikes, except I suppose there are no bikes as everything passes through everything else (makes it tough to see where you're going). So is it this very physical, or ghostly counterpart that is understandable in physical metaphors, that gives structure to reality? Or did you mean "spirit" in another sense? Because how you're even going to get started on non-physical matter and energy answering questions on why a person is here is entirely beyond me.

It seems to me like you're headed, in the end, for spituality as feeling like life is meaningful. But i'll let you answer the question above. In a separate post, I'll ignore the deeper points of dividing up two realms and just inquire specifically, about the questions you've given.