The Fall of the Iron Curtain

[_beastie]

I suspect the difference may be in the timeline - I served nearly thirty years ago. When did Nehor's friend serve?

Perhaps the leaders finally realized that browbeating missionaries was not productive. This was not a method that originated from my mission president, because he was right in line for the browbeating - or so the mission rumor went. Supposedly after the meeting in which Hales made the APs cry, he had at the mission president, too.

[_Jason Bourne]

If that's true, then why were we as missionaries constantly berated for our lack of "success"? I am quite sure I know what my mission president would have said if I had told him, "Well, no one ever said they'd accept the message."

Because MPs are human like anyone else and they want results that make them look good. Some may be hoping for a GA spot. Not all are like that though. Some are very kind and nice and while they expect Elders to work hard they do not drive them like vacuum cleaner salemen.

Maybe you're not old enough to remember, but the late 80s and early 90s were a time of breathless pronouncements of how the work was going to explode in Eastern Europe. The people there were supposed to be anxiously awaiting the word to be preached to them. The success of the other religions shows that people were receptive. I wonder why they weren't receptive to Mormonism.

I am old enough to remember and I do not remember breathless pronouncements of how the work would explode. Growth and oppornities yes,but explode? Course I am getting old and maybe I am just forgetting.

[_Jason Bourne]

Why Jasoncant you look up the information n your own?

Look jerk, there is nothing wrong with asking the person who makes the claims to provide support.

Is it because you think he is lying?

I did not say that at all nor do I think Runtu thought I did. Unlike you, while he is a dissafected latter day saint he has remained rational. You can learn a lot from him.

For once why can't you just accept that your religion is not as strong as you believe it to be?

I have accepted it dork. I know it is not that strong, though I knew that a long time ago. Seems there is this line in the Book of Mormon that the numbers of the Church of the Lamb would always be small.

I suspect your self image is wrapped up too deeply for you to let go.

I suspect you are looking in a mirror when you say this and this is why you are such an angry man.

Its sad really.

What is sad is how badly you misread me due to your own deep seated emotional problems.

[_Jason Bourne]

I don't feel that it's a form of bragging. It's an upbeat thing that some members love. The world as a whole will not accept the Gospel. The Scriptures make that very clear. I don't know who Rodney Stark is but I doubt we'll ever match Islam or the rest of Christianity in numbers. Maybe we will. I hope we will.

I'm not sure it's so much bragging as it is explicit and implicit suggestion that the growth of the church is fulfilling prophecy. Are we to understand that stagnating growth rates are also a fulfilment of prophecy?

Rodney Stark was a sociologist who predicted huge growth rates into perpetuity for the church, making it the next great religion. His prediction was touted by church leaders as proof we were growing by leaps and bounds. Just go to library.LDS.org and search the magazines for "rodney stark" and you'll see what we mean.

About ten years ago I sat in leadership meeting with a GA I highly respect. He said the Church thought Stark's projections were way to high and that internally they plan for about 65 Million member in the same time frame that Stark predicted, what was it, hundreds of millions? I forget. But it was really high.

[_Jason Bourne]

I was a missionary in France from 79-81. We were one of the, if not THE, lowest baptizing mission in Europe. We were constantly berated for our lack of success, and told that our lack of faith and maybe even lack of obedience was the problem. The field was white already to harvest, we were told. We had no excuse. It was brutal and depressing.

I feel sad for you. Your MP was foolish to do this especially given where you served.

[_Jason Bourne]

The Lord is obviously trying our faith. I have asked the question myself. He works in mysterious ways Runtu, and we must understand that. In the next life we'll look back and smile, then knowing His purposes. For now, we must have more faith and sacrafice more freely. His blessing shall flow in his own due time.

Amen.

Trying our faith? I just don't think your soul is that important to anyone (including to God) to damn others at the expense of you learning greater faithfulness. Makes you feel like your soul has greater value than all the great unwashed, doesn't it? Gives you an "apostle complex"?

As for the need to understand that God works mysteriously:

3 For my soul delighteth in plainness; for after this manner doth the Lord God work among the children of men. For the Lord God giveth light unto the understanding; for he speaketh unto men according to their language, unto their understanding.

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 31:3)

Why don't you have more faith and start sacrificing more freely? What is your problem? Lengthen your Stride you slack dog. You're best just isn't good enough. It's time you ran faster than you are able.

I'll bet you would sound less ridiculous if you read your scriptures and posted without the bottle of Thunderbird in your free hand.

No doubt, you will make a fine mission president someday.

(flame off)

Uhh...Tommy is a parody of Thomas Monson...so you just flamed someone who is poking fun at Pres Monson.

[_Jason Bourne]

Robert Hale was his name. I will never forget him. He's a general authority now.

An apostle.

They also made us all buy and read the book Drawing on the Powers of Heaven - (what a deal that author made). The book clearly stated that there were simple rules of behavior and attitude to follow, and if you followed them, you'd have success. So I devoured that book, tried my best, and still had no success. More guilt. No matter how hard I tried, I just wasn't doing it right. What was wrong with me?????

I served from 79-81 too and we used that book in my mission. Must have been used a lot. I are it up. Actually for some reason I had a lot of success in a mission that was marginal in baptisms. Maybe 12-15 per companionship in two years. I attributed it to following the ideas of that book. I am not sure why now. Maybe just hit on a lot of interested people. I did work pretty hard, and I think harder then most. But hey who knows?

[_Inconceivable]

Uhh...Tommy is a parody of Thomas Monson...so you just flamed someone who is poking fun at Pres Monson.

Wow. Nice act Tommy (you jerk). You got me.


Thanks a pant load for the heads up, Jas.

[_The Nehor]

Robert Hale was his name. I will never forget him. He's a general authority now.

An apostle.

They also made us all buy and read the book Drawing on the Powers of Heaven - (what a deal that author made). The book clearly stated that there were simple rules of behavior and attitude to follow, and if you followed them, you'd have success. So I devoured that book, tried my best, and still had no success. More guilt. No matter how hard I tried, I just wasn't doing it right. What was wrong with me?????

I served from 79-81 too and we used that book in my mission. Must have been used a lot. I are it up. Actually for some reason I had a lot of success in a mission that was marginal in baptisms. Maybe 12-15 per companionship in two years. I attributed it to following the ideas of that book. I am not sure why now. Maybe just hit on a lot of interested people. I did work pretty hard, and I think harder then most. But hey who knows?

Funny, when my companion talked to the Mission President and said he was reading that book and asked for advice on how to apply it his response was to tell him that everything worth knowing in that book was in the Scriptures and to focus on those. I never gave the Mission President my reading list....I don't think he would have liked it all.

[_beastie]

I served from 79-81 too and we used that book in my mission. Must have been used a lot. I are it up. Actually for some reason I had a lot of success in a mission that was marginal in baptisms. Maybe 12-15 per companionship in two years. I attributed it to following the ideas of that book. I am not sure why now. Maybe just hit on a lot of interested people. I did work pretty hard, and I think harder then most. But hey who knows?

We often had missionaries that went home with zero baptisms I had two for my entire mission and that was considered successful. At my exit interivew, the president told me how lucky I was to have that. This was the Toulouse France mission, and it was closed and merged into other french missions shortly after my mission. I think they opened it back up eventually.

I really threw myself into the principles in Drawing on the Powers of Heaven. It didn't work at all. You have to remember that I was a convert at 19, and had a very strong testimony. None of our leaders or teachers (MTC) were realistic in what they conveyed to us, they all seemed to believe that all the other missionaries who'd served and had dismal results just didn't have enough faith, and if they could pressure us to have enough faith, it would finally work. Well, of course it didn't. French people are very proud of their culture and, at that time period at least, hated the idea of arrogant americans telling them what to do about ANYTHING. Then imagine arrogant americans trying to make them give up catholicism, which is such a part of their culture.

Our leaders used to tell us that the time for "planting seeds" was over, now was the time for HARVEST. So they took away one of the small ways we used to comfort ourselves over our lack of success.

I really have no idea why our leaders were so heartless with us. Maybe we were some pilot program called "can you harass and humiliate missionaries until they're motivated to baptize more?"

The whole problem, of course, wasn't in the missionaries' motivation (although month after month of failure can de-motivate) - it was that the people we were trying to reach simply were not interest, and no book or change of tactic was going to change that.