LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

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_maklelan
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Re: LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

Post by _maklelan »

sunstoned wrote:The prophets and Q12 have been quoted in the thread over and over that they proclaim the flood happened and was global. It is also in all LDS scriptures. If that is not doctrine, then I don't know what is. You claim these guys are inspired. How about stepping up and owning it.


Oh, sure it's doctrine in the sense of a teaching, but it's not "Official Doctrine" in the sense of being binding on the membership.
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_SteelHead
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Re: LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

Post by _SteelHead »

Here MAk

JST GENESIS 8
13 And it repented Noah, and his heart was pained, that the Lord had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
14 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created, from the face of the earth, both man and beast, and the creeping things, and the fowls of the air.
15 For it repenteth Noah that I have created them, and that I have made them; and he hath called upon me, for they have sought his life.
16 And thus Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord; for Noah was a just man, and perfect in his generation; and he walked with God, and also his three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
17 The earth was corrupt before God; and it was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted its way upon the earth.
18 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence, and behold, I will destroy all flesh from off the earth.
19 Make thee therefore, an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and thou shalt pitch it within and without with pitch;
20 And the length of the ark thou shalt make three hundred cubits; the breadth of it fifty cubits; and the height of it thirty cubits.
21 And windows shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; lower, second, and third chambers shalt thou make in it.
22 And behold, I, even I will bring in a flood of water upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; every thing that liveth on the earth shall die.
23 But with thee will I establish my covenant, even as I have sworn unto thy father, Enoch, that of thy posterity shall come all nations.
24 And thou shalt come into the ark, thou and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with them.
25 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every kind shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep alive with thee; they shall be male and female.
26 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind; two of every kind shalt thou take into the ark, to keep alive.
27 And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather fruit of every kind unto thee in the ark, and it shall be for food for thee, and for them.
28 Thus did Noah, according to all that God commanded him.
29 And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house, into the ark; for thee only have I seen righteous before me, in this generation.
30 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female; and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female;
31 Of fowls also of the air, by sevens, the male and his female; to keep seed alive upon the face of the earth.
32 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days, and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
33 And Noah did according to all that the Lord commanded him. And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.
34 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.
35 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that were not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, there went in two and two, unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
36 And it came to pass, after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth. In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, and the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened, and the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
37 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah; and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them into the ark; they, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth on the earth, after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, and every bird of every sort;
38 And they went unto Noah, into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life; and they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him, and the Lord shut him in.
39 And the flood was forty days upon the earth, and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lifted up above the earth.
40 And the waters prevailed and increased greatly upon the earth, and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
41 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the face of the earth, and all the high hills, under the whole heavens were covered. Fifteen cubits and upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
42 And all flesh died that moved upon the face of the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beasts, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man.
43 All in whose nostrils the Lord had breathed the breath of life, of all that were on the dry land, died.
44 And every living substance was destroyed, which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowls of the air; and they were destroyed from the earth;
45 And Noah only remained, and they that were with him in the ark.


Are any doctrines "official" in the sense of be binding? What does that even mean? You have to believe to be considered a member in good standing? There is so much latitude in that as to make the term official doctrine meaningless.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin
_maklelan
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Re: LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

Post by _maklelan »

SteelHead wrote:Are any doctrines "official" in the sense of be binding? What does that even mean? You have to believe to be considered a member in good standing? There is so much latitude in that as to make the term official doctrine meaningless.


Yes, there's plenty of latitude, but that's what makes it flexible and useful.
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_SteelHead
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Re: LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

Post by _SteelHead »

That's what makes it useful for plausible deniability. It is like jello. Might as well say there are no official doctrines of the church outside of pay tithing. That one they are finicky about. But we leave the definition of income to the reader, except when we reword old talks to make it gross income.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin
_sunstoned
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Re: LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

Post by _sunstoned »

maklelan wrote:
sunstoned wrote:The prophets and Q12 have been quoted in the thread over and over that they proclaim the flood happened and was global. It is also in all LDS scriptures. If that is not doctrine, then I don't know what is. You claim these guys are inspired. How about stepping up and owning it.


Oh, sure it's doctrine in the sense of a teaching, but it's not "Official Doctrine" in the sense of being binding on the membership.


What the prophets say while in a official capacity is not binding on the membership? Do you say this stuff out loud before typing it?
_maklelan
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Re: LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

Post by _maklelan »

sunstoned wrote:What the prophets say while in a official capacity is not binding on the membership? Do you say this stuff out loud before typing it?


It's not binding on membership that women have only one piercing per ear. It's not binding on membership that all dates be paired off, planned, and paid for. We could make a list a thousand miles long of the things that prophets have said while in an official capacity that are not binding on the membership. Shoot, even the Adam-God theory was something Brigham Young lamented he could not convince the membership to accept.
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_mentalgymnast
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Re: LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

Post by _mentalgymnast »

SteelHead wrote:The brethren have consistently established that "upon the earth" does indeed mean "all the earth" through consistent publication of the idea of a global flood through official church publications.


Correlated materials are going to have remnants of earlier teachings in them until they are correlated out. If God reveals line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little...the flipside is that there are going to be teachings that are incomplete and/or incorrect in some respects. Until the missing elements are filled in through further questioning/inquiry and the resulting inspiration that may come. In the meantime published materials will print the understanding of the day.

If we're taking the approach that prophets, or anyone for that matter, are blank slates to be written on by the hand of God, we may be found in error and barking up the wrong tree...ending in disappointment...and disbelief. If God takes more or less a collaborative approach..."let us reason together"...He's going to let us struggle/move along and learn through discovery and confirmation through both intellectual and spiritual means.

If you go back and look at the last few decades of conference talks there is a noticeable decrease in references to global flooding or Noah's flood. Greater light and understanding has come through scientific investigation that wasn't available earlier to those that spoke in their day. Those teachings are still in print but may gradually disappear. The mission of the church and the core doctrines are in no way affected by incorrect or incomplete information being the source material for beliefs and public expressions by church leaders, policy makers (correlation committee), and curriculum writers/publishers.

The four fold mission of the church will not fall flat whether or not there was or wasn't a global flood. The four fold mission of the church will fall flat if God doesn't exist, Jesus is not Savior/Redeemer, or Joseph Smith did not experience a vision in which deity restored knowledge/keys that had been lost, etc.

Regards,
MG
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Re: LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

Post by _Bazooka »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Bazooka wrote:The official Church position remains...


When I read this article the month it came out I basically said, "What the hay?" Now that I look back on it, however, I'm questioning whether or not this is the "Church's official position". If an article is published in the Ensign by someone who is not a GA are we to assume that it is official church doctrine? I know folks have been down this road before, that is, whether or not what is published in the Ensign is considered to be doctrine. I don't know that there has been any closure on this either through official and/or unofficial sources. I am of the opinion that this article was Donald Parry's position and the position of many other members of the church...but the official church position?

Regards,
MG


What do you consider is the standing of the recent anonymous essays?
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
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Re: LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

Post by _Bazooka »

maklelan wrote:
sunstoned wrote:What the prophets say while in a official capacity is not binding on the membership? Do you say this stuff out loud before typing it?


It's not binding on membership that women have only one piercing per ear. It's not binding on membership that all dates be paired off, planned, and paid for. We could make a list a thousand miles long of the things that prophets have said while in an official capacity that are not binding on the membership. Shoot, even the Adam-God theory was something Brigham Young lamented he could not convince the membership to accept.


Do you think the Prophets that said those thing thought that members should consider their words as binding, or did they explain that what they were saying was just their own mortal opinion which members could take or leave as no big deal? Can you point to anything from the Church which gives members the guidance that makes it clear that believing the flood was not what the official teaching materials of the Church teach it to be, is okay?
Last edited by Guest on Sat Sep 27, 2014 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
_SteelHead
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Re: LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

Post by _SteelHead »

So even though it is in manuals, on LDS.org, in the ensign, and has been taught over the pulpit at conference repeatedly and consistently for the last 150+ years, the concept that the flood served as a baptism by immersion for the earth and that it will later be cleansed by fire symbolic of the reception of the gift of the holy ghost is not official doctrine of the LDS church?
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin
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