Zerinus - Do you believe there was death before Adam's fall?

[_SteelHead]

YECs and flat earthers...... are of the same species.

[_Themis]

Zerinus, I realise the futility of any expectation of you addressing any actual evidence. However, to show the vacuousness of your stated opinion on evolution, I ask you to review the examples of evolution in the attached link and account for them without an acceptance of evolution.

http://examples.yourdictionary.com/exam ... ution.html

One such example from the link:

Mexican cavefish once had eyes, but in the caves, eyes were no longer necessary. They have also lost their pigmentation, because they no longer need camouflage from predators.

He needs to have the basic background knowledge of these sciences to understand the issue. He doesn't. Then add that his religion as well as others have attacked sciences in areas they don't agree with, creating an environment of distrust of their members towards the sciences. Most will never spend time to understand the claims you are making from the sciences. That is what open minded people do. While many LDS have more open minds, he is not in this category. Anyone who spends this kind of time promoting YEC you know does not have an open mind.

[_zerinus]

Out of curiosity have you ever just done Google research on the topic?

For example I just typed in 'speciation + examples' and about a million examples hit:

https://www.google.com/search?q=speciat ... e&ie=UTF-8

Even with pictures:

https://www.google.com/search?q=speciat ... 00&bih=794

Also, I suggest you take a look at what exactly is 'scientific theory':

https://www.slideshare.net/gurung7/unit ... c-theory-p

I get the sense you want to make a strong case for your position, which is fine, however it's helpful to your position if you understand the opposition's terms, definition, and science.

- Doc

Thank you. I looked at some of those, but they don’t really prove what they think they prove. For example, here is a quote from one website (emphasis added):

“An example of speciation is the Galápagos finch. Different species of these birds live on different islands in the Galápagos archipelago, located in the Pacific Ocean off South America. The finches are isolated from one another by the ocean. Over millions of years, each species of finch developed a unique beak that is especially adapted to the kinds of food it eats. Some finches have large, blunt beaks that can crack the hard shells of nuts and seeds. Other finches have long, thin beaks that can probe into cactus flowers without the bird being poked by the cactus spines. Still other finches have medium-size beaks that can catch and grasp insects. Because they are isolated, the birds don’t breed with one another and have therefore developed into unique species with unique characteristics. This is called allopatric speciation.”

This of course refers to Darwin’s famous finches, and the conclusions he drew from them; but the theory is based on unprovable assumptions. It does not prove what is stated, but merely assumes it. It proves nothing. As for so called “allopatric speciation” in general, no such phenomenon has been proved or demonstrated. If a given specie become geographically isolated from their own kind for a long period, they may overtime develop characteristics or dispositions which may make them reluctant to mate with or reproduce with their cousins when they are reintroduced. But that does not constitute “speciation” as such. “Allopatric speciation” (so called) is still an assumption, not an observation.

[_Nightlion]

Hey Themis check this out, Nightlion stood up to go all literal and look:

God took a rib or particles of that peculiar dust element Adam had suffered through

Not even Nightlion can take the word of God at face value and believe in a literal rib and makes it a metaphor for particles and dust elements etc. lol.

(by the way, I grew up in a household that taught men have one fewer ribs than women, thanks to the Lord taking one from Adam)

(also by the way, amateurs, metaphors for reductionist hypothesis are lame. As a great introduction, watch the old TV sci-fi series "Stargate")

So it was dust, or particles to Adam that caused his loss of memory and tether to the Garden but with Eve it must be an actual rib or God is a liar?
Adam and God were being genteel to the woman to give her pre-assimilated dust stuff. Where you gonna find it? On Adam's skin or deep within?

[Guest]

This of course refers to Darwin’s famous finches, and the conclusions he drew from them; but the theory is based on unprovable assumptions. It does not prove what is stated, but merely assumes it. It proves nothing. As for so called “allopatric speciation” in general, no such phenomenon has been proved or demonstrated. If a given specie become geographically isolated from their own kind for a long period, they may overtime develop characteristics or dispositions which may make them reluctant to mate with or reproduce with their cousins when they are reintroduced. But that does not constitute “speciation” as such. “Allopatric speciation” (so called) is still an assumption, not an observation.

Zerinus,

Where in the world do you pick up this ^ nonsense? I'm embarrassed for you just reading this stuff. Here are a couple of facts that you might consider before making a fool of yourself again regarding evolution.

1. Living organisms, including humans, carry fairly detailed documentation of their evolutionary history in their genetic code. For example, the human genome tells us about the genetics of our parents, our grandparents, and even of our most recent (last) common ancestor. We can compare our genomes to those of our closest evolutionary relatives (namely the Chimpanzee and the Bonobo), and make a good estimate of how long ago our respective (simian and hominid) genetic codes diverged. That divergence was likely due to environmental (climate) change in Africa (relatively dense forest to savannah)

Same goes for the genetic codes of other animals. These genomes tell us about the animals evolutionary past. Sometimes analysis of these genomic sequences reveal real surprises, as described below.

2. Your claim that different species cannot interbreed (by definition) is simply not true. Inter-species breeding can, and on occasion does, produce offspring that are themselves capable of reproduction. Many of these hybrids eventually evolve into new species that occupy different environmental niches from the one occupied by one or both of their parents. The process has come to be known as hybrid speciation.

When new environmental niches become available, whether in muddy canals of Europe, or from climate change in Alaska, new organisms (species) are likely to evolve to take advantage of them. Again, in contrast to your claims, such processes (evolution of a new species) have been observed within the span of a human lifetime.

Before you again claim that speciation cannot be observed in higher animals, you should look up the term hybrid speciation using a resource other than a pseudoscientific creationist website. Examples abound - from insects, to fish, to mammals.

As mentioned above, environmental changes often spur this process. In fact, we may well have been observing hybrid speciation over the last several decades in the increasing incidence grizzly bear / polar bear interbreeding due to climate change.

Known as "grolar bears" these reproductively viable hybrids have been produced in zoos and it appears that the same is happening in the wild as the territories of the previously well separated species begin to overlap again due to global warming.

[_Kittens_and_Jesus]

That is an assumption. It is a theory.

Theories aren't assumptions.

How can you argue science when you don't understand basic terms?

[_zerinus]

Zerinus,

Where in the world do you pick up this ^ nonsense? I'm embarrassed for you just reading this stuff. Here are a couple of facts that you might consider before making a fool of yourself again regarding evolution.

1. Living organisms, including humans, carry fairly detailed documentation of their evolutionary history in their genetic code. For example, the human genome tells us about the genetics of our parents, our grandparents, and even of our most recent (last) common ancestor. We can compared our genomes o those of our closest evolutionary relatives (namely the Chimpanzee and the Bonobo), and make a good estimate of how long ago our respective (simian and hominid) genetic codes diverged. That divergence was likely due to environmental (climate) change in Africa (relatively dense forest to savannah)

Same goes for the genetic codes of other animals. These genomes tell us about the animals evolutionary past. Sometimes analysis of these genomic sequences reveal real surprises, as described below.

2. Your claim that different species cannot interbreed (by definition) is simply not true. Inter-species breeding can, and on occasion does, produce offspring that are themselves capable of reproduction, and eventually evolve into new species that occupy different environmental niches from one that of one or both of their parents. The process has come to be known as hybrid speciation.

When new environmental niches become available, whether in muddy canals of Europe, or from climate change in Alaska, new organisms (species) are likely to evolve to take advantage of them. Again, in contrast to your claims, such processes (evolution of a new species) have been observed within the span of a human lifetime.

Before you again claim that speciation cannot be observed in higher animals, you should look up the term hybrid speciation using a resource other than a pseudoscientific creationist website. Examples abound - from insects, to fish, to mammals.

As mentioned above, environmental changes often spur this process. In fact, we may well have been observing hybrid speciation over the last several decades in the increasing incidence grizzly bear / polar bear interbreeding due to climate change.

Known as "grolar bears" these reproductively viable hybrids have been produced in zoos and it appears that the same is happening in the wild as the territories of the previously well separated species begin to overlap again due to global warming.

That is called hocus pocus scientific fairy-tale. It ain’t no science.

[_Kittens_and_Jesus]

That is called hocus pocus scientific fairy-tale. It ain’t no science.

Yet you believe a man who lied about finding gold with rocks in a hat translated golden plates with rocks in a hat...wow....

[_zerinus]

That is called hocus pocus scientific fairy-tale. It ain’t no science.

Yet you believe a man who lied about finding gold with rocks in a hat translated golden plates with rocks in a hat...wow....

I believe in miracles, that is true.

[_Kittens_and_Jesus]

Once again, you believe a man caught lying about finding buried gold with rocks and a hat translated golden plates with rocks and a hat...