The Interpreter is sticking with Tapirs. Chariots aren't chariots and more.

[Marcus]

Hi,

I'm new to this chat board. I have to say that accuracy doesn't seem to be prized here.

how rude. But, welcome.

I'm the author of the INTERPRETER article. I don't say that Book of Mormon horses were tapirs. I have included the discussion for completeness. I doubt that was the animal. Horses in the Book of Mormon are rarely mentioned. Tapirs are more plentiful in the area today, although who knows what it might have looked like in 589 BCE.

But, you stated in your paper

Historically the tapir has been domesticated but apparently not tamed, raising questions about whether it could be the Book of Mormon horse.31

So, you are "raising questions," but you have no actual knowledge? You, the person who said this?

accuracy doesn't seem to be prized here.

You seem to be confused about what "prizing accuracy" means.

That's enough for a first question, i hope you plan to respond, and not just try to condescend.

I look forward to your response, mr. Hale.

[Shulem]

Horses in the Book of Mormon are rarely mentioned.

But they are mentioned and that is what counts. Even if it were just one time, that would be enough. "Horses" are mentioned early in the Book of Mormon by Nephi from two separate and distinct perspectives:

1. Isaiah's horses in the Old World (2 Nephi 12:7, 15:28)
2. Nephi's horses in the New World (1 Nephi 18:25)

It must be stressed that the first horses described by Isaiah are imaginary creatures that are mentioned only in passing while reading text from brass plates. But the second are real and are accurately portrayed as living creatures, observing them in their natural habitat while walking in the physical realm. The sighting of horses by Nephi in the New World shortly after arriving in the promised land is very telling as it informs us that horses were near the first inheritance after they anchored Nephi's homemade ship and set foot upon dry ground. The sighting of various animals was an accurate accounting, for example, we are informed that there are two kinds of goats (1) "the goat" and (2) "the wild goat". But we are only told that there was one kind of horse which is the same horse understand by Nephi to have existed in the Old World such as those which the Egyptians used to chase the Israelites across the Red Sea.

So what did Nephi say he saw immediately upon venturing away from the coast and heading inland? He saw the horse. And a horse is an animal not easily caught but easily observed -- from a distance.

And it came to pass that we did find upon the land of promise, as we journeyed in the wilderness, that there were beasts in the forests of every kind, both the cow and the ox, and the ass and the horse, and the goat and the wild goat, and all manner of wild animals, which were for the use of men.

Look from a distance, see, behold the horses! There are horses here in the land of promise for where there is one horse there must be another -- even "many" horses (Enos 1:21).




Our friend Brian just got his first dose of Shulem.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Ironically, the much-maligned tapir (Figure 1), which has been suggested as a possible Book of Mormon “horse,” is taxonomically related to the Equus caballus, both being in the Perissodactyla order

I want to note this bit of pointless misdirection, too. The rhinoceros also belongs to that class, but Mopologists haven’t suggested they were used by Book of Mormon peoples, even though rhinos originated in, I believe, North America.

The point being is eQuUs CaBaLlUs is distantly related to both rhinos and tapir (and another mammal that went extinct), and even the most cursory reading of the Book of Mormon makes clear that when Joseph Smith purportedly saw the word horse on his iStone it meant horse. The context of horse within the Book of Mormon is clear - it’s grouped together with other farm animals like the ass, and is mentioned being used with chariots. Additionally, the iStone used the words curelom and cumom to describe “useful” animals, so it didn’t have a problem using a foreign word to describe a foreign animal.

- Doc

[Shulem]

Brother Hale's thesis of the tapirs being eaten could help explain their absence from the Delmarva Peninsula.

Wouldn't it be sweet if Brian could explain how the Delmarva Peninsula is fully described in Book of Mormon text from the perspectives in which the promised land is meticulously described as Delmarva?

Can Brian think outside the testimony box and consider the possibility that the Book of Mormon is truly fiction? The land of promise can ONLY be found when one realizes that the whole story is fiction and that Smith used Delmarva as a land prop to develop and map out his story on the playing field. And the final act was the most important of all: Get the plates to Cumorah!

Can you think outside the box, Brian? Will you think outside the box?

Welcome to Discuss Mormonism!


Brian Hales just got his second dose of Shulem.

[Shulem]

The point of the article is that if horses (Equus caballus) existed among the Book of Mormon peoples, they did not use them as virtually all other developing civilizations used them. They didn't help in war or with transportation or in other ways.

Brian,

You mean to say that Nephites & Lamanites (and other warring factions) failed to take full advantage of what horses can do for them? You can't be serious! That makes little sense when warring sides are going to want to modernize or improve upon their weapons and arsenals. Like the Egyptians of old, the horse & chariot was used for warfare as recently explained by John Gee at INTERERPRETER. Even Mormon Jesus prophesied that horses & chariots of the Gentiles in the last days would be wiped out, saying: "Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy  chariots." Certainly the Nephites didn't want their horses and chariots cut off and destroyed so they better be good and do what's right. Right?

What good were horses if they didn't used them to assist in transport and whatever means they could be employed? Look, the Book of Mormon makes it clear that the Nephites knew full well what horses were good for when it comes to employing them for war because the brass plates say so:

Whose arrows shall be sharp, and all their bows bent, and their horses’ hoofs shall be counted like flint, and their wheels like a whirlwind, their roaring like a lion.

We can be sure that Nephites rode their horses just as Joseph Smith imagined when telling his stories to his scribe. Horses were "CONDUCTED" (Webster's 1828 Dictionary "CONDUCTED, participle passive Led; guided; directed; introduced; commanded; managed") from place to place according to the pleasure of their masters:

And they said unto him: Behold, he is feeding thy horses. Now the king had commanded his servants, previous to the time of the watering of their flocks, that they should prepare his horses and chariots, and conduct him forth to the land of Nephi; for there had been a great  feast appointed at the land of Nephi, by the father of Lamoni, who was king over all the land.

Thus we see that horse and rider were prepared and conducted forth from one place to another. So you see, Brian, your statement makes little sense to those who are informed and think outside the testimony box.

[drumdude]

It never fails to bring a smile to my face seeing former church apologists like Shulem, Consig, Philo, and Reel engage with their past selves in the form of current MoPologists.

They know all the tricks. They know where the bodies are buried.

[Moksha]

And they said unto him: Behold, he is feeding thy horses. Now the king had commanded his servants, previous to the time of the watering of their flocks, that they should prepare his horses and chariots, and conduct him forth to the land of Nephi; for there had been a great  feast appointed at the land of Nephi, by the father of Lamoni, who was king over all the land.

I think Brian Hales would answer that there were no horses or chariots, but rather huge tapirs. The mistranslation arose from the sedimentary process taking its toll on the seer stone. For every wild charge of the so-called "critics", there is a cogent answer based on historical and physical geology (except for the King's name and a few more items). Polygamy can be found in the Cambrian layers based on the priesthood ordinations of the trilobites.

Hope that helps.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

[Shulem]

The context of horse within the Book of Mormon is clear - it’s grouped together with other farm animals like the ass, and is mentioned being used with chariots.

You are correct, my good Doctor. But, Brian Hales suggests that horses "didn't help in war or with transportation or in other ways." What kind of nonsense is that? I hardly think Joseph Smith would approve that kind of talk.

The text of Joseph's story states rather emphatically that horses were indeed for the use of men and we can only assume in many ways:

And it came to pass that we did find upon the land of promise, as we journeyed in the wilderness, that there were beasts in the forests of every kind, both the cow and the ox, and the ass and the horse, and the goat and the wild goat, and all manner of wild animals, which were for the use of men.

So, we see that horses were for the use of men. How much more clear can the text be in showing that the farm animals listed above were for the use of men but we KNOW that horses have special uses because they are agile and can travel long distances quickly and anytime, day or night. Horses pulling chariots and men are used for the purposes of conducting their masters from place to place:

And there were many  highways cast up, and many roads made, which led from city to city, and from land to land, and from place to place.

Isn't that right? I think so!

[Res Ipsa]

Now that would be cool!