DiscussMormonism.com

drumdude wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 08, 2024 9:00 pm

Kishkumen wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 08, 2024 8:41 pm

I think criticism is a good thing. Don't get me wrong. That said, the amount of unanswered criticism that occurs here practically invalidates the whole board. Some people just dismiss this place because it contains almost nothing but criticism. Some of the criticism here goes too far. I also think that criticism can be a matter of perspective.

You know, the whole idea of the "prophets, seers, and revelators" being God's mouthpieces on earth doesn't seem to amount to as much as one might think. Consider how short today's LDS leaders fall of Joseph Smith, and I don't think you can do anything else but conclude that they are not prophets, seers, and revelators in the way Smith was. They hold the titles and exercise authority over the LDS Church, but they don't do what Joseph did to lay claim to those roles.

I've seen a lot of attempts over the years to deliver a softer criticism of the church, John Dehlin tried this and even created an entire forum called StayLDS - devoted entirely to trying to "make it work" as a skeptical progressive member.

Bill Reel tried to make it work, Dehlin tried to make it work, plenty of Mormons tried to walk a nice soft line and guide the church and its members gently in the right direction. And the church came down on them hard for all of their efforts.

At the end of the day, both sides think that the truth matters. If Mormonism is a sham, it should be criticised. It's the objectively right thing to do. And if Mormonism is true, it should be preached from the mountain tops. The middle ground is a weird moral relativism, and almost nihilistic view that nothing really matters and no belief system is any better or worse than any other. I think if you take that to the extreme, and put Scientology/Mormonism/*insert high demand cult here* on the same level as the Catholic church or Buddhism, you've gone wrong. I know it's a hot take to equate Mormonism and Scientology but in my mind you have to do a lot of mental gymnastics not to see the glaring and harmful similarities.

I think there are ways to take mixed views of Mormonism without adopting a find a way to stay goal or a whatever is whatever view (The phrase “moral relativism” is tricky, I think). One can see positive elements without forgetting the negatives. In fact, I think in terms of a project of understanding the human condition and how we think and hope one should see a variety of qualities in all sorts of groups.

Kishkumen's take often makes sense to me but not always, nor should that always be the case.

Kishkumen wrote:I think criticism is a good thing. Don't get me wrong. That said, the amount of unanswered criticism that occurs here practically invalidates the whole board. Some people just dismiss this place because it contains almost nothing but criticism. Some of the criticism here goes too far. I also think that criticism can be a matter of perspective.

I disagree. I think the vast majority who avoid this forum do so because it contains any criticism. As soon as a board is flagged as critical friendly, independent of how much criticism there is, it's an "anti-Mormon" site for any TBM. Yes, because it's "almost nothing but criticism" as you say, that does seal the deal. But if there was sixty percent less criticism, I doubt that would draw any of the faithful here.

You know, the whole idea of the "prophets, seers, and revelators" being God's mouthpieces on earth doesn't seem to amount to as much as one might think. Consider how short today's LDS leaders fall of Joseph Smith, and I don't think you can do anything else but conclude that they are not prophets, seers, and revelators in the way Smith was. They hold the titles and exercise authority over the LDS Church, but they don't do what Joseph did to lay claim to those roles.

I'm in perfect agreement. I'm pretty sure Elder Holland wouldn't agree.

Kishkumen wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 08, 2024 8:41 pm

You know, the whole idea of the "prophets, seers, and revelators" being God's mouthpieces on earth doesn't seem to amount to as much as one might think. Consider how short today's LDS leaders fall of Joseph Smith, and I don't think you can do anything else but conclude that they are not prophets, seers, and revelators in the way Smith was.

Just a gentle reminder, but Smith wasn't a prophet, seer, or revelator either. He was simply LARPing as one.

They hold the titles and exercise authority over the LDS Church, but they don't do what Joseph did to lay claim to those roles.

True, they aren't even bothering to LARP as such.

drumdude wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 08, 2024 9:00 pm

At the end of the day, both sides think that the truth matters. If Mormonism is a sham, it should be criticised. It's the objectively right thing to do. And if Mormonism is true, it should be preached from the mountain tops. The middle ground is a weird moral relativism, and almost nihilistic view that nothing really matters and no belief system is any better or worse than any other. I think if you take that to the extreme, and put Scientology/Mormonism/*insert high demand cult here* on the same level as the Catholic church or Buddhism, you've gone wrong. I know it's a hot take to equate Mormonism and Scientology but in my mind you have to do a lot of mental gymnastics not to see the glaring and harmful similarities.

I think you and I map the world in quite different ways that are hard to reconcile. I don't occupy a middle ground of weird moral relativism. I think it is instead very important to be kind to others and serve them. At the same time, I recognize that my view on the world is a very small and limited one. This is me trying to exercise some epistemic humility.

I agree that it is possible for communities to be unhealthy in various ways. To my understanding, Scientology is much more harmful than the LDS Church, to the point, indeed, that I have a difficult time equating them at all. I have read and seen enough about the abuse of SeaOrg people that would be difficult to find a parallel within LDSism, except among prepped types. As for the average person's experience, Scientology is more like a therapeutic cult and in that regard not much like LDSism at all.

On the other hand, I do see some similarities, but they are pretty broad and not very worrisome. I do think that the LDS Church has some bad policies, and I find it does have some characteristics of a high-demand religion. That said, it is just too easy not to be bothered about. When the sister missionaries come to our door, we just don't answer. Easy as pie. It only happens once every few months. They are looking to baptize our kids, who are now coming into adulthood.

I would not keep my child from joining the LDS Church, and, indeed, I would rather they joined the LDS Church than some other options.

Gadianton wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 09, 2024 1:16 am

I disagree. I think the vast majority who avoid this forum do so because it contains any criticism. As soon as a board is flagged as critical friendly, independent of how much criticism there is, it's an "anti-Mormon" site for any TBM. Yes, because it's "almost nothing but criticism" as you say, that does seal the deal. But if there was sixty percent less criticism, I doubt that would draw any of the faithful here.

Dean, I greatly respect you and your opinions. You are one of the great lights of this board. Indeed, I am often taken aback by your sheer intelligence and ability to reason things through for us.

I would agree with you that this is the case most of the time, but there are times when people become more open to criticism, and yet if they stumble across something that is negative to the point of getting ugly, they recoil. It's simply too much.

I don't have a goal of getting people to leave the LDS Church. I come here to discuss topics that interest me, and I like to have a few people around, people like my dear friend Tim Griffy, who are wonderful people, critical thinkers, and people of faith. I have been really thrilled to see him here, and it is unusual the degree to which he can let negativity roll off him like water off a duck's back.

If only there were more Tims out there. I also love having my fiercely critical ex-LDS friends around too. People like you.

Dr. Shades wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 09, 2024 10:06 am

Just a gentle reminder, but Smith wasn't a prophet, seer, or revelator either. He was simply LARPing as one.

LARPing is underrated. And he LARPed pretty darn well, if that was indeed just LARPing.

huckelberry wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 08, 2024 9:28 pm

I think there are ways to take mixed views of Mormonism without adopting a find a way to stay goal or a whatever is whatever view (The phrase “moral relativism” is tricky, I think). One can see positive elements without forgetting the negatives. In fact, I think in terms of a project of understanding the human condition and how we think and hope one should see a variety of qualities in all sorts of groups.

Kishkumen's take often makes sense to me but not always, nor should that always be the case.

Yes, the ability to see the positive and negative is good. Seeking to understand the human condition is a good thing, too. I don't expect or want people to agree with me all the time. That would be boring, and I would learn a lot less.

Kishkumen wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 09, 2024 11:53 am

Gadianton wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 09, 2024 1:16 am

I disagree. I think the vast majority who avoid this forum do so because it contains any criticism. As soon as a board is flagged as critical friendly, independent of how much criticism there is, it's an "anti-Mormon" site for any TBM. Yes, because it's "almost nothing but criticism" as you say, that does seal the deal. But if there was sixty percent less criticism, I doubt that would draw any of the faithful here.

Dean, I greatly respect you and your opinions. You are one of the great lights of this board. Indeed, I am often taken aback by your sheer intelligence and ability to reason things through for us.

I would agree with you that this is the case most of the time, but there are times when people become more open to criticism, and yet if they stumble across something that is negative to the point of getting ugly, they recoil. It's simply too much.

I don't have a goal of getting people to leave the LDS Church. I come here to discuss topics that interest me, and I like to have a few people around, people like my dear friend Tim Griffy, who are wonderful people, critical thinkers, and people of faith. I have been really thrilled to see him here, and it is unusual the degree to which he can let negativity roll off him like water off a duck's back.

If only there were more Tims out there. I also love having my fiercely critical ex-LDS friends around too. People like you.

I agree with you both.

you're far too kind, Reverend. I haven't been part of every thread, if Tim has been treated poorly then that's a shame, as he's one of my favorites. Unfortunately for the few believers, to the extent that other members recognize them as traditional believers, they become the customer service rep and that can be overwhelming. I feel less bad for the MGs, however, than I do for the Tims.

I don't know if there's a solution. I mean, I have a couple other trade/engineering type forums I occasion in phases, and the wars and bad blood and hurt feelings over technical things far removed from politics and religion can be something to behold. Now add religion and politics and good luck. I think you're doing the right thing by making your position known, and I relish disagreement and so if you think I'm way off on something, blast away. I don't want to be weak like Dan, unable to take criticism.

People are going to be themselves here and that often includes never giving the Church leaders a break, and that's just the way it is. The best you can do as you are doing now, if you think people are wrong, by all means argue it. Then you become the service rep for the Church and take a lot of heat. Unfortunately, my views of the leaders have deteriorated substantially given the financial abuse and the difficulties my nieces and nephews will face.

Gadianton wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:17 am

you're far too kind, Reverend. I haven't been part of every thread, if Tim has been treated poorly then that's a shame, as he's one of my favorites. Unfortunately for the few believers, to the extent that other members recognize them as traditional believers, they become the customer service rep and that can be overwhelming. I feel less bad for the MGs, however, than I do for the Tims.

I don't know if there's a solution. I mean, I have a couple other trade/engineering type forums I occasion in phases, and the wars and bad blood and hurt feelings over technical things far removed from politics and religion can be something to behold. Now add religion and politics and good luck. I think you're doing the right thing by making your position known, and I relish disagreement and so if you think I'm way off on something, blast away. I don't want to be weak like Dan, unable to take criticism.

People are going to be themselves here and that often includes never giving the Church leaders a break, and that's just the way it is. The best you can do as you are doing now, if you think people are wrong, by all means argue it. Then you become the service rep for the Church and take a lot of heat. Unfortunately, my views of the leaders have deteriorated substantially given the financial abuse and the difficulties my nieces and nephews will face.

No, Tim has not had a bad time here, at least as far as I am aware. I bring him up as an exceptional case. There are few people identifying as believing LDS in any form who would want to put up with the drubbing they are liable to get here.

I don't know that there is a solution either. The board is what it is, and we are lucky to have it as it is. Honestly, my primary concern is not at all with the leaders of the LDS Church. I wish them well, but I don't spend much time thinking about them. I feel pretty far checked out of the entire culture of LDS leadership. I have not watched a lick of General Conference in ages. I am not all that eager to watch critiques of General Conference. I may do so simply because our dear friend consiglieri put a lot of effort into it, but the idea of caring what LDS leaders think or do is increasingly foreign to me.

Maybe what I am saying is that I was in the mood to express my own misgivings about negativity, and so I did. Leaders in any organization seem to be a necessary evil. Very infrequently do we find truly good ones, and very often we spend a lot of time dealing with the harm they do as they struggle to fill their roles or as they exploit the power and privilege they have been given. I have seen very few leaders in my time that I would care to spend much time with, and that is as true of my professional life as it is in other areas, such as politics.

That said, lately I find greater relief from keeping them as much out of mind as possible. So, this could be my fault for my own hypocrisy in spending time on something I know brings me little benefit.