The Lord was behind the recent financial fraud scandal.

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Marcus
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Re: The Lord was behind the recent financial fraud scandal.

Post by Marcus »

huckelberry wrote:
Tue Jun 03, 2025 8:15 pm
Of course it is possible to be a believing Mormon and think that the Lord does not micromanage but leaves lots of space for free decisions and the learning experiences that result. I believe Joseph taught that, at least it makes far more sense than micromanaging even if it allows errors and some poor decisions.
I suppose so, but it is difficult to read the details and continue to think of this as a problem of 'micromanagement'. This is just their press release, the full complaint is even more specific:
Washington D.C., Feb. 21, 2023 —

The Securities and Exchange Commission today announced charges against Ensign Peak Advisers Inc., a non-profit entity operated by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to manage the Church’s investments, for failing to file forms that would have disclosed the Church’s equity investments, and for instead filing forms for shell companies that obscured the Church’s portfolio and misstated Ensign Peak’s control over the Church’s investment decisions. The SEC also announced charges against the Church for causing these violations. To settle the charges, Ensign Peak agreed to pay a $4 million penalty and the Church agreed to pay a $1 million penalty.

The SEC’s order finds that, from 1997 through 2019, Ensign Peak failed to file Forms 13F, the forms on which investment managers are required to disclose the value of certain securities they manage. According to the order, the Church was concerned that disclosure of its portfolio, which by 2018 grew to approximately $32 billion, would lead to negative consequences. To obscure the amount of the Church’s portfolio, and with the Church’s knowledge and approval, Ensign Peak created thirteen shell LLCs, ostensibly with locations throughout the U.S., and filed Forms 13F in the names of these LLCs rather than in Ensign Peak’s name. The order finds that Ensign Peak maintained investment discretion over all relevant securities, that it controlled the shell companies, and that it directed nominee “business managers,” most of whom were employed by the Church, to sign the Commission filings. The shell LLCs’ Forms 13F misstated, among other things, that the LLCs had sole investment and voting discretion over the securities. In reality, the SEC’s order finds, Ensign Peak retained control over all investment and voting decisions.

“We allege that the LDS Church’s investment manager, with the Church’s knowledge, went to great lengths to avoid disclosing the Church’s investments, depriving the Commission and the investing public of accurate market information,” said Gurbir S. Grewal, Director of the SEC’s Division of Enforcement. “The requirement to file timely and accurate information on Forms 13F applies to all institutional investment managers, including non-profit and charitable organizations.”

Ensign Peak agreed to settle the SEC’s allegation that it violated Section 13(f) of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934 and Rule 13f-1 thereunder by failing to file Forms 13F and for misstating information in these forms. The Church agreed to settle the SEC’s allegation that it caused Ensign Peak’s violations through its knowledge and approval of Ensign Peak’s use of the shell LLCs.

Paul Feindt conducted the SEC’s investigation under the supervision of Tracy Combs and Tanya Beard of the Salt Lake Regional Office and Laura Metcalfe of the Denver Regional Office.

https://www.sec.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2023-35
I bolded a couple of sentences that clearly indicate this was not a micromanagement issue. The LDS Church leaders knew what was happening, and the SEC knows they knew what was happening. And they did it for in excess of TWO decades.

Also, I have a hard time calling what happened 'poor decision-making' and 'errors'. If I recall correctly, the full complaint spells out that the First Presidency knew what was happening, and they knew what they were doing was in violation of SEC regulations.

If your point was that's how some members justify violations of this magnitude to themselves, then yes, I agree.
I Have Questions
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Re: The Lord was behind the recent financial fraud scandal.

Post by I Have Questions »

Marcus wrote:
Tue Jun 03, 2025 8:51 pm
huckelberry wrote:
Tue Jun 03, 2025 8:15 pm
Of course it is possible to be a believing Mormon and think that the Lord does not micromanage but leaves lots of space for free decisions and the learning experiences that result. I believe Joseph taught that, at least it makes far more sense than micromanaging even if it allows errors and some poor decisions.
I suppose so, but it is difficult to read the details and continue to think of this as a problem of 'micromanagement'. This is just their press release, the full complaint is even more specific:
Washington D.C., Feb. 21, 2023 —

The Securities and Exchange Commission today announced charges against Ensign Peak Advisers Inc., a non-profit entity operated by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to manage the Church’s investments, for failing to file forms that would have disclosed the Church’s equity investments, and for instead filing forms for shell companies that obscured the Church’s portfolio and misstated Ensign Peak’s control over the Church’s investment decisions. The SEC also announced charges against the Church for causing these violations. To settle the charges, Ensign Peak agreed to pay a $4 million penalty and the Church agreed to pay a $1 million penalty.

The SEC’s order finds that, from 1997 through 2019, Ensign Peak failed to file Forms 13F, the forms on which investment managers are required to disclose the value of certain securities they manage. According to the order, the Church was concerned that disclosure of its portfolio, which by 2018 grew to approximately $32 billion, would lead to negative consequences. To obscure the amount of the Church’s portfolio, and with the Church’s knowledge and approval, Ensign Peak created thirteen shell LLCs, ostensibly with locations throughout the U.S., and filed Forms 13F in the names of these LLCs rather than in Ensign Peak’s name. The order finds that Ensign Peak maintained investment discretion over all relevant securities, that it controlled the shell companies, and that it directed nominee “business managers,” most of whom were employed by the Church, to sign the Commission filings. The shell LLCs’ Forms 13F misstated, among other things, that the LLCs had sole investment and voting discretion over the securities. In reality, the SEC’s order finds, Ensign Peak retained control over all investment and voting decisions.

“We allege that the LDS Church’s investment manager, with the Church’s knowledge, went to great lengths to avoid disclosing the Church’s investments, depriving the Commission and the investing public of accurate market information,” said Gurbir S. Grewal, Director of the SEC’s Division of Enforcement. “The requirement to file timely and accurate information on Forms 13F applies to all institutional investment managers, including non-profit and charitable organizations.”

Ensign Peak agreed to settle the SEC’s allegation that it violated Section 13(f) of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934 and Rule 13f-1 thereunder by failing to file Forms 13F and for misstating information in these forms. The Church agreed to settle the SEC’s allegation that it caused Ensign Peak’s violations through its knowledge and approval of Ensign Peak’s use of the shell LLCs.

Paul Feindt conducted the SEC’s investigation under the supervision of Tracy Combs and Tanya Beard of the Salt Lake Regional Office and Laura Metcalfe of the Denver Regional Office.

https://www.sec.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2023-35
I bolded a couple of sentences that clearly indicate this was not a micromanagement issue. The LDS Church leaders knew what was happening, and the SEC knows they knew what was happening. And they did it for in excess of TWO decades.

Also, I have a hard time calling what happened 'poor decision-making' and 'errors'. If I recall correctly, the full complaint spells out that the First Presidency knew what was happening, and they knew what they were doing was in violation of SEC regulations.

If your point was that's how some members justify violations of this magnitude to themselves, then yes, I agree.
Here is a link to the SEC’s “Cease & Desist” order that it issued on the Church.

https://www.sec.gov/files/litigation/ad ... -96951.pdf

It’s a staggering read. There is no hiding place, the First Presidencies of the Church knowingly authorised securities fraud for twenty years. The order states that the First Presidency gave unanimous authoristaion to every key decision of the frauds across the 20 years. And the Church just released an essay (see the OP) that gives all the decision making “credit” to The Lord.
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Conclusion. Therefore, the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is notoriously unreliable.
MG 2.0
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Re: The Lord was behind the recent financial fraud scandal.

Post by MG 2.0 »

Mag’ladroth wrote:
Tue Jun 03, 2025 7:24 pm
The United States Federal Government the LDS Church hierarchy across multiple First Presidencies committed deliberate fraud against the US Government.
This statement is on its face untrue. Criminal charges were not pursued. The penalties were civil not criminal. Neither the Church nor Ensign Peak admitted to fraud or wrongdoing as part of the settlement.

Not to say that there wasn't some 'repenting' to do on the part of the money managers moving assets around in shell companies.

In June 2019, after the SEC expressed concern about these reporting methods, Ensign Peak and the Church "adjusted its approach and began filing a single aggregated report". Since then, the Church has filed quarterly reports in accordance with SEC requirements. The Church stated that it relied on legal counsel for its previous approach but, after the SEC’s intervention, changed its practices to comply with the law and has since cooperated with the government.

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/busine ... -rcna71603

I'm not convinced that this is all what the critics are making it out to be. As it is, the church now has enough and to spare in its assets in order to carry out its mission. This should be celebrated, not condemned.

Unless, of course, one is prone to not be in support of the church's mission.

Again, as I stated earlier in this thread, I think it is unreasonable to think that God is micromanaging the financial affairs of the church. Other examples that could be mentioned in the history of the church would demonstrate that this seems to be the case. On the other hand, in this particular case, it is possible that some at Ensign Peak and within the First Presidency had their concerns about investments and what legal counsel was telling them...but I don't know that we'll ever really know.

I don't think it really matters at this point. Others seem to think it does. Agree to disagree.

Regards,
MG
Marcus
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Re: The Lord was behind the recent financial fraud scandal.

Post by Marcus »

I Have Questions wrote:
Tue Jun 03, 2025 9:38 pm
Here is a link to the SEC’s “Cease & Desist” order that it issued on the Church.

https://www.sec.gov/files/litigation/ad ... -96951.pdf

It’s a staggering read. There is no hiding place, the First Presidencies of the Church knowingly authorised securities fraud for twenty years. The order states that the First Presidency gave unanimous authoristaion to every key decision of the frauds across the 20 years. And the Church just released an essay (see the OP) that gives all the decision making “credit” to The Lord.
Yes, "the First Presidencies of the Church knowingly authorised securities fraud." The complaint made that absolutely clear. The facts are indisputable.
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malkie
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Re: The Lord was behind the recent financial fraud scandal.

Post by malkie »

In other words, the Church (that is, "Lord") unknowingly relied on the advice of fallible lawyers?

Reminds me of this:
someone wrote:“No. I’m relying on the attorney general of the United States, Pam Bondi, who’s very capable, doing a great job,” he said. “Because I’m not involved in the legality or the illegality. I have lawyers to do that, and that’s why I have a great DOJ.”
Not sure that this is an improvement.
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Dr Moore
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Re: The Lord was behind the recent financial fraud scandal.

Post by Dr Moore »

People assume they used outside counsel - Kirton McConkie - to “rely” upon, but it’s entirely possible they didn’t hire Kirton McConkie to advise on this illegal scheme. I say this because no credible law firm with securities practice attorneys would ever EVER endorse a 13F filing scheme that depended on committing federal document perjury.

I think it’s far more plausible they had one or two internal staff attorneys give a nod, probably guys who had no clue about securities markets or SEC compliance. And with those unnamed patsies, you have the vague, chicken-sh** statement that church leaders “received and relied upon legal counsel.”

There is no God in the universe who is pleased with the matter. Except Loki, I suppose.
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Morley
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Re: The Lord was behind the recent financial fraud scandal.

Post by Morley »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Tue Jun 03, 2025 10:49 pm
Again, as I stated earlier in this thread, I think it is unreasonable to think that God is micromanaging the financial affairs of the church.
(Strikeout is mine.)

And I agree. However, the public relations department of your church is arguing otherwise.
LDS Church essay wrote:
Tue Jun 03, 2025 10:49 pm
All financial matters in the Church are ultimately subject to the Lord’s direction through His chosen leaders.
You maintain that LDS leaders were not led (managed, micromanaged) by God when they made decisions to violate the law, and everyone here seemingly concurs. Since we all agree that this was not an example of God guiding the Church, in spite of how Church leadership spins it, I'm not sure what your beef is.
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Morley
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Re: The Lord was behind the recent financial fraud scandal.

Post by Morley »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Tue Jun 03, 2025 10:49 pm
On the other hand, in this particular case, it is possible that some at Ensign Peak and within the First Presidency had their concerns about investments and what legal counsel was telling them...but I don't know that we'll ever really know.

I don't think it really matters at this point.
MG, you're right. It doesn't matter if it's "possible that some at Ensign Peak and within the First Presidency had their concerns about investments and what legal counsel was telling them."

Despite that, I wonder what makes you think that they might have.

Like you, I guess that anything is possible. As you imply, what really matters is what the First Presidency ultimately did, and for how long they did it. Everything else is speculation. These are grown men who say that they're daily talking to God. These are men with access to the best advice that money can buy and God can give. It's hard to sympathize with their plight.
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Re: The Lord was behind the recent financial fraud scandal.

Post by msnobody »

Somewhere in the back of my mind is the thought why doesn’t the church help teach her members how to invest their personal wealth wisely. They sure seem to know how to grow wealth.
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Marcus
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Re: The Lord was behind the recent financial fraud scandal.

Post by Marcus »

msnobody wrote:
Wed Jun 04, 2025 2:39 am
Somewhere in the back of my mind is the thought why doesn’t the church help teach her members how to invest their personal wealth wisely. They sure seem to know how to grow wealth.
The LDS church grows its wealth by teaching that giving them 10% should happen before paying bills, before feeding children, before paying a mortgage or rent, even if it takes going into debt to do it. The first lesson in the LDS church 'self reliance' manual is literally, 'pay us first.'

The LDS church grows wealth by impoverishing individual members and families, for generations.
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